That darned old Orange Mask

jsmithphoto1 · Dec 4, 2016

Hello, everyone!

I'm more than certain this has been discussed before, but I am having trouble finding it. But, a while ago I have seen that there is a formula out there that serves as a "bleach" to remove the orange mask from C-41 film. Can anyone help to lead me to where that formula is? Am I going crazy?!

Thanks!

Zathras · Dec 4, 2016

Hope you don't mind my asking, why do you want to remove the mask? Sorry I don't have an answer for you, but your question made me curious.

Photo Engineer · Dec 4, 2016

That formula is probably the one used to remove the yellow filter layer when color films are processed in B&W chemistry. There is no formula, AFAIK, that can remove the mask without removing the image dyes.

PE

LAG · Dec 4, 2016

jsmithphoto1 said:
... there is a formula out there that serves as a "bleach" to remove the orange mask from C-41 film.

No Sir!

jsmithphoto1 said:
Am I going crazy?!

Yes Sir!

480sparky · Dec 4, 2016

Zathras said:
......why do you want to remove the mask? ..........

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

Zathras · Dec 4, 2016

480sparky said:
Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

My diseased little mind wants to know too...

Gerald C Koch · Dec 4, 2016

Zathras said:
My diseased little mind wants to know too...

Completely off target but I just had to say this. When the "chips" are down walk carefully!

flavio81 · Dec 4, 2016

jsmithphoto1 said:
Hello, everyone!

I'm more than certain this has been discussed before, but I am having trouble finding it. But, a while ago I have seen that there is a formula out there that serves as a "bleach" to remove the orange mask from C-41 film. Can anyone help to lead me to where that formula is? Am I going crazy?!

Thanks!

The "darned" orange mask is what makes color negative film have purer, more accurate color than slide films ! (together with other factors).

Why do you want to remove it?

AgX · Dec 5, 2016

To be fair, negatives were in more need of that colour correction than slides, due to the involved imaging chain.

baachitraka · Dec 5, 2016

Shoot with black and white film.

georgegrosu · Dec 5, 2016

When I came in cine in 1980 I saw a piece of film with color negative image but a very small fog.
I asked what film is and I have said it Orwo NC 1.
Is the film before negative color film Orwo NC 3.
For improving of color rendering was invented mask correction.
Now you want to remove him after so many people have worked to achieve.
Can you tell us why?
Maybe we can to help in some way.

George

Anon Ymous · Dec 5, 2016

Methinks he wants to make positives using C41 film. You can get an interesting result, but the orange mask gets in the way...

georgegrosu · Dec 5, 2016

Perhaps there are things that get rid to me.
The color positive film cost is less than the color negative, and if you find a laboratory known a few tens of meters give you free.
If you can not process it in ECP you can try first time for developer any color developer you have.
Use a negative gray scale or color scale to have a reference.

George

Anon Ymous · Dec 5, 2016

georgegrosu said:
Perhaps there are things that get rid to me.
The color positive film cost is less than the color negative, and if you find a laboratory known a few tens of meters give you free.
If you can not process it in ECP you can try first time for developer any color developer you have.
Use a negative gray scale or color scale to have a reference.

George

I didn't mean making positives from already existing negatives, but getting positives straight on C41 film. Use a BW first dev, expose to light, then process C41. But anyway, the OP will tell us why he wants to remove the mask. Enquiring minds want to know.

georgegrosu · Dec 5, 2016

I do not know a possibility to directly obtain a positive image on a film color negative and who have a small fog.
The fog is given from the film used.
PE suggested posibility will destroy partially the dyes formed in negative.
It is a risky and somewhat unpredictable process.
We use this method at the copy print coming out darker.
We are passing by an acidic solution (sulfuric acid) and their acid solution was drying in the emulsion.
Do not wash after acid solution.
You can test.

George

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

AgX said:
To be fair, negatives were in more need of that colour correction than slides, due to the involved imaging chain.

Not exactly true. Reversal has no big method of correction as color development goes to completion. All correction must be done in the FD for the most part. Negative has interimage without masking and does a fine job of correction, even better than reversal. Add in masking and DIR couplers and it is great.

To be fair, Kodak made a masked reversal intermediate film and there was no real market interest.

PE

twelvetone12 · Dec 5, 2016

What was that for? to make direct copies of negative film?

AgX · Dec 5, 2016

What I meant was, that the insufficient negative is copied onto insuffient paper, the error thus adds up.
With a slide you have that insufficiency only at one stage as there will not be a second stage.

And I only referred to the basic idea of integrated masking.
Of course colour film technology has evolved and thus non-masked films of today are better in colour purity then their non-masked predecessors from decades ago.

flavio81 · Dec 5, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Reversal has no big method of correction as color development goes to completion. All correction must be done in the FD for the most part.

That's why i use canon manual focus lenses.

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

AgX said:
What I meant was, that the insufficient negative is copied onto insuffient paper, the error thus adds up.
With a slide you have that insufficiency only at one stage as there will not be a second stage.

And I only referred to the basic idea of integrated masking.
Of course colour film technology has evolved and thus non-masked films of today are better in colour purity then their non-masked predecessors from decades ago.

Both the original negative film (unmasked) and the print material may have color correction from DIR couplers or interimage effects. Many things contribute to correction at both stages. So, you may misunderstand this, and I hope this corrects your opinion.

PE

baachitraka · Dec 5, 2016

flavio81 said:
That's why i use canon manual focus lenses.

AgX · Dec 5, 2016

I know this all, but as said I was referring to the basic idea behind introducing integrated masking, at a time the techniques you described were not yet invented.

Photo Engineer · Dec 5, 2016

Ah, but they were. Agfa and Konica used a rinse after development to get special interimage effects and other methods were used in the film. This goes back to day 1 of color neg-pos systems. I have run both processes, the later under the supervision of a Konica researcher who described what was taking place to me. Sorry for the disagreement, but it was known.

PE

AgX · Dec 6, 2016

I agree, as I see now you use the term interimage effect in its wider meaning, but thought as you hinted at DIR-couplers you were hinting at more modern techniques.

jsmithphoto1 · Dec 8, 2016

Sorry to keep you all waiting! I have been super super busy! Anyway, I was wanting to get rid of it simply... "because". I want to do some effects in the future, and would like to see what I can accomplish if I, as Anon Ymos (like the name, btw haha) had to say, processed C-41 as E-6. We all know that xprocess E-6 yields blasted color. But it's not the norm to see C-41 xprocessed as E-6. And everyone has this weird obsession with "lomo" and "experimental photography". I personally don't like it, because through the years I've come to love true-to-life results better, but I have a very curious brain and, unfortunately, it will not rest until I see, first hand, the results. I know there is a different color developer that will give unstable dyes and such, but I still want to know

"What if" is what puts air in my lungs.

Is there a way to remove the orange mask??? What does that beautiful C-41 image look like without the orange mask??? How will it print in the darkroom without the elusive orange mask???

That darned old Orange Mask

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