Testing the large format waters

[Grim Tuesday]

I've been thinking about trying out large format but am kinda lost in all the options for cameras and lenses. I probably want something with movements, but also something lightweight, and not too expensive... I'm sure that's a tall order and will mostly lead to the most expensive cameras. I'm not sure if I will like large format over medium format, though I sure do like medium format over small. What do I need to get to be able to develop large format film?

For people just moving from small to medium format cameras the canned recommendation is a $100 Japanese TLR or rolleicord because they're small light and pretty high quality. I guess I'm wondering what the equivalent recommendation for just getting into large format is.

 

[B.S.Kumar]

You'll get a lot of conflicting recommendations, leaving you even more confused.

Start with a cheap monorail and a standard 150mm lens. Read a book like "Using the View Camera". Learn how movements affect the look of the image. Then, if your kind of photography does not require all the movements that monorail cameras are capable of, get a field camera. Most of us have several cameras, depending on the kind of photographs we want to take on a particular day.

I use a Sinar P2 for when I want precise movements in architecture and interiors, a Sinar F2 or Toyo D45M when I want movements, but need to walk, and a Wista 45D when I want a compact camera for landscape.

Kumar

 

[nosmok]

Up to 5x7 can be developed in a 1-liter Nikor tank (the kind that takes 2 120 film developing reels)-- about 3 sheets folded like tacos will fit in one. The standard advice is to get a 4x5 Crown Graphic or something like that, which is not bad advice-- you can see if you like the extra real estate without having to start out working upside down and backwards under a dark cloth, plus you can get your feet wet working upside down and backwards under a dark cloth. 5x7 view cameras are relatively reasonable, and 4x5 reduction backs are not uncommon, so if you decided to go whole hog you could still use the 4x5 film you bought for the Graphic, plus a 5x7 camera is actually "better" to shoot 4x5 film with . Anything bigger and more involved than the Crown CAN NOT be handheld, so there's the tripod expense too, but an old all wooden Graflex #2 tripod will hold most any wooden 5x7 and not break the bank or your back. Good luck!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Get whatever view camera and or monorail camera you want, but be aware that if they are 4"x5" cameras a Pacemaker Speed or Crown Graphic can also use those lenses and it would be available as a hand held camera. Pacemaker Speed Graphic and Pacemaker Crown Graphic cameras are not expensive and if you decide that you don't want them, you can sell them for the price you bought them. Hand held cameras were used for decades by news and sport photographers. Look at Weegees's work.

https://www.theartstory.org/artist/weegee/
http://www.stevenkasher.com/artists/weegee
https://www.icp.org/browse/archive/constituents/weegee?all/all/all/all/0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weegee

 

[Theo Sulphate]

...
Read a book like "Using the View Camera". Learn how movements affect the look of the image. Then, if your kind of photography does not require all the movements that monorail cameras are capable of, get a field camera. ...

Good advice.

 

[Dan Fromm]

I'm with Kumar. Get an inexpensive monorail, film holders, normal lens and good book on LF photography. Then go play.

For most of us, the first camera was the wrong camera. After your first camera has taught you what's you want/need, sell it and get a camera better suited to your preferences. Prices for used gear are stable enough that try and replace will cost you little.

Which first monorail? I'm partial to the Cambo SC system, others recommend Sinar. Can't go very wrong with either.

Press camera? I like my tiny little 2x3 Graphics. I know, medium format, not large. But Graphics of all sizes, even though very useful, lack movements. If you think you want what a view camera can do, get a view camera.

 

[eddie]

You should be able to get a Calumet or Kodak monorail for $100-125. Add a lens for about $100, a half dozen holders, and a dark cloth. You can get into this for under $300.

 

[Oren Grad]

I probably want something with movements, but also something lightweight, and not too expensive...

Get a lightweight folding 4x5 wooden field camera - Wista, Tachihara, Nagaoka, Ikeda, Woodman, Shen Hao, Chamonix, etc.

Don't get a monorail to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're cheap and plentiful and have lots of movements. But the ones that are cheap and plentiful are big and heavy and clumsy and a royal pain to lug in the field. They'll suck all the pleasure out of the enterprise before you've gotten anywhere.

Don't get a Graphic (Speed, Crown) to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're still relatively cheap, quite rugged, simple to set up, and most of them come with a rangefinder that, if properly calibrated, can be useful in some circumstances. But they have limited movements in front and none in the rear, they're a pain to use with short focal lengths, they're a nuisance to use for vertical photographs, and the rangefinder isn't nearly so useful as it would seem on first acquaintance.

I own all of these camera types and more; each has its place. But IMO, for most beginners a folding wooden field camera is going to be most conducive to trying the camera in a wide range of situations and, most important of all, to having fun, so that you'll pursue large format far enough to give it a fair test of whether it's right for you.

Whichever way you go, good luck!

 

[eddie]

Get a lightweight folding 4x5 wooden field camera - Wista, Tachihara, Nagaoka, Ikeda, Woodman, Shen Hao, Chamonix, etc.

Don't get a monorail to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're cheap and plentiful and have lots of movements. But the ones that are cheap and plentiful are big and heavy and clumsy and a royal pain to lug in the field. They'll suck all the pleasure out of the enterprise before you've gotten anywhere.

Oren makes a good point about monorails. My first 4x5 was a Kodak Master View- a heavy metal beast. I used the heavy carrying box it came with, and my knees were always bruised for days after carrying it around. I moved to a wood field as soon as I knew I was committed to the format. (I bought a Calumet Wood Field, a rebranded Tachihara, but at a lower price). I was also able to carry a lighter tripod with the lighter camera.

 

[jim10219]

It all depends on what you want to shoot and what your budget is.

I have a Graflex Speed Graphic that is smallish, rugged, and fairly light in weight (for a 4x5). It's movements are limited, but it has enough movements for landscape work, which is where I use it. It works well with any lens from 90mm to 210mm, which is about 28mm-65mm equivalent in 35mm film. You can go up to 300mm, but you'll lose the ability to focus closely. However, I have a 360mm telephoto lens that works fine, even for close ups due to its telephoto design. I also have a 65mm lens for extreme wide angles, but with that lens, you don't get much movements. That's not usually an issue though, because with a lens that wide, you usually don't need movements. It also has a focal plane shutter, which is useful for barrel lenses like my Petzval and some homemade lenses.

I also have a Sinar F1. It's great for portraits, still life's, and architecture. It has tons of movements and isn't crazy heavy, but it's not worth hiking with or taking on a plane. I will use it in situations where I only have to walk a mile or so from the car. No large format camera is going to be light or portable compared to a 35mm. The film holders, heavy duty tripod, light meter and dark cloth alone make the setup bulky enough without taking into account lenses on lens boards and the camera itself. Large format isn't about portability or speed. It's about quality and taking your time. And a monorail is about the most professional version of a large format camera out there. It's almost ridiculous that they're so cheap these days, but product photography and portraiture is rarely done anymore with film, so they don't command the prices they once did. Hence why field cameras still cost a pretty penny.

I don't own, but know several people who enjoy their Intrepid field cameras. They have pretty good movements, are fairly cheap, and pretty light in weight. The downside is they're not that sturdy or well built. They're good enough to last you several years and see if you want to dive further into the format though. But you won't be passing them down to your grandkids. If you go this route, all of your lenses and accessories will still work on your next camera (minus perhaps lens boards), so it's not like you're throwing a bunch of money away.

Those are the three popular recommendations, and chosen so for good reasons. They're cheap enough to get you started and good enough to get the job done. They all have drawbacks, which is why they're cheap to begin with. So you'll just have to figure out which drawbacks you can live with. Keep in mind, that the camera is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to expenses. You might be best off finding someone selling a whole kit, that way you don't get nickel and dimes to death with all of the little things that add up.

 

[Alan9940]

I'm with Oren on this one...monorails, unless you go high end like the Arca Swiss, for example, are just not a pleasure to work with IMO. You may want to look at the Intrepid 4x5; brand new and not much cost to try LF photography.

 

[jamesaz]

My first was a speed graphic. That was 50 years ago. I've had many since, up to 11x14. Which ever you decide on it likely won't be your last. Moving on, if you don't have a darkroom you'll need a changing bag. If you want to process your film, I'd suggest getting an SP445. It's an adventure, have fun.

 

[winger]

I started with a Cambo monorail - yes, it was relatively cheap and came with a lens and a couple of holders. I wouldn't say it was a bad choice, but I sold it after a few years and bought a Chamonix. I've made more than twice as many shots with the Chamonix in half the time I had the Cambo because I can hike with the Chamonix and I don't need to contort the bellows like a pretzel anyway. Along the way, I've also added a Crown Graphic, Speed Graphic, pinhole, and Travelwide.

What you might want to do is see if there are any members here or on the LF forum in your area who could show you some of the differences and help you narrow down your choices.

 

[removed account4]

What you might want to do is see if there are any members here or on the LF forum in your area who could show you some of the differences and help you narrow down your choices.

GREAT IDEA !

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I've been thinking about trying out large format but am kinda lost in all the options for cameras and lenses. I probably want something with movements, but also something lightweight, and not too expensive... I'm sure that's a tall order and will mostly lead to the most expensive cameras. I'm not sure if I will like large format over medium format, though I sure do like medium format over small. What do I need to get to be able to develop large format film?

For people just moving from small to medium format cameras the canned recommendation is a $100 Japanese TLR or rolleicord because they're small light and pretty high quality. I guess I'm wondering what the equivalent recommendation for just getting into large format is.

after trying several 4x5 cameras,I settled on a metal-field,which I found to be light-weightand most flexible;the big benefit of 4x5 is that you can use the lenses once bought on all cameras. Brfore, I had moved from 35mm to MF and experienced a big jump in image quality;I was hoping for a similar jump moving from MF to LF but that did not happen. Overall MF is probaby the ideal compromise in film formats; high image quality combined with the flexibility of a camera system. I csn't think of a photographic subject MF can't handle to my sarisfaction.

 

[Arklatexian]

after trying several 4x5 cameras,I settled on a metal-field,which I found to be light-weightand most flexible;the big benefit of 4x5 is that you can use the lenses once bought on all cameras. Brfore, I had moved from 35mm to MF and experienced a big jump in image quality;I was hoping for a similar jump moving from MF to LF but that did not happen. Overall MF is probaby the ideal compromise in film formats; high image quality combined with the flexibility of a camera system. I csn't think of a photographic subject MF can't handle to my sarisfaction.

While I enjoy owning my 4x5 Crown Graphic and Graphic View 2 which have lenses that are useful in both cameras, I think Ralph is correct in what he says about Medium Format. When the urge to photograph hits me, I first look at my Hasselblad 500CM with its 80mm lens and a tripod. Up to and including 16 x 20, 16 x16, 20x20, enlargements are certainly possible from that camera mounted on a tripod. The other lenses that I have for that camera just make it even more useful. He did not mention which system but I have...........Regards!

 

[Ian Grant]

Get a lightweight folding 4x5 wooden field camera - Wista, Tachihara, Nagaoka, Ikeda, Woodman, Shen Hao, Chamonix, etc.

Don't get a monorail to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're cheap and plentiful and have lots of movements. But the ones that are cheap and plentiful are big and heavy and clumsy and a royal pain to lug in the field. They'll suck all the pleasure out of the enterprise before you've gotten anywhere.

Don't get a Graphic (Speed, Crown) to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're still relatively cheap, quite rugged, simple to set up, and most of them come with a rangefinder that, if properly calibrated, can be useful in some circumstances. But they have limited movements in front and none in the rear, they're a pain to use with short focal lengths, they're a nuisance to use for vertical photographs, and the rangefinder isn't nearly so useful as it would seem on first acquaintance.

I own all of these camera types and more; each has its place. But IMO, for most beginners a folding wooden field camera is going to be most conducive to trying the camera in a wide range of situations and, most important of all, to having fun, so that you'll pursue large format far enough to give it a fair test of whether it's right for you.

Whichever way you go, good luck!

I agree with Oren about Speed/Crown Graphics, and I do use them. I've been using a Wist 45DX for over 30 years and it's never let me down, I also use a Graflex Super Graphic which has more movements than a Speed or Crown and enough for my landscape work and it's often used hand held.

Personally I wouldn't suggest a monorail, I bought my first a Whole plate, Half plate. & 5x4 De Vere in 1976, great for studio work but not for backpacking & speed of use, I had a Cambo Cadet later (Calumet Cadet in the US) that was light weight & cheap but I only used it once on a 4 day trip, so eventually sod both Monorails,

There are cheap but good LF cameras around (well here in the UK) I bought 2 MPP MicroTechnical MkIII cameras for £70 (less than $90) although one was in bits - it's now rebuilt, and later a nice MkVII with a lens (In excellent condition) for less than $160. However the MPP's aren't light but they are rugged essentially a British Linhof Technika copy.

Ian

 

[narsuitus]

I'm not sure if I will like large format over medium format, though I sure do like medium format over small. What do I need to get to be able to develop large format film?

Many years ago, the first cameras I used were medium format. I began using small format cameras shortly before I started working as a photographer for a newspaper. When I started working for a wedding/portrait studio, I primarily used medium format but was also introduced to 4x5 inch large format. Later, when I worked for a reproduction studio, I was introduced to 8x10, 10x12, and larger large format photography.

Today, I still shoot small, medium, and large format. Like others, I found an enormous difference in image quality between small an medium format. I found a smaller difference in image quality between medium and large format but found a significant difference in image control.

For me, developing my own small format and medium format film (color and black & white) is much easier than developing my own large format film.



Small, Medium, Large Format by Narsuitus, on Flickr



Large Format Film Developing by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

[Sirius Glass]

Don't get a Graphic (Speed, Crown) to start with. They're widely recommended to beginners because they're still relatively cheap, quite rugged, simple to set up, and most of them come with a rangefinder that, if properly calibrated, can be useful in some circumstances. But they have limited movements in front and none in the rear, they're a pain to use with short focal lengths, they're a nuisance to use for vertical photographs, and the rangefinder isn't nearly so useful as it would seem on first acquaintance.

I disagree. Find out if you like using and carrying around a LF camera. If you do not like carrying a press camera, you will not like carrying any other LF camera and a tripod. With the limited movements, one can find out if they really like using the movements. The lenses can be used on cameras purchased later and if one decides to get rid of the press camera and get a view camera or monorail camera, they can get their money back easily.

 

[grahamp]

The jump from 35mm to roll-film is not too great on the darkroom side - the tanks will adapt, maybe a new enlarger/lens, some storage sheets for the film.

With 5x4 you will be looking at a new tank (unless you use the 'taco' method in a 2+ reel tank), a bigger enlarger and lens, and storage sheets for the film. Sheet film commercial processing tends to be higher than roll films because of the extra handling.

On the camera side, you will likely need three film holders (six sheets) minimum, a good tripod if you do not already have one, plus whatever camera and lens you choose.

I'd say the decision to use 5x4 if you do not have experience is more of a commitment than going 35mm to roll-film. I'd had some introduction at college with a monorail, and a chance to borrow an MPP technical later, and I got the gift of an older Beseler 45M enlarger. That just left me with solving the development issue - I found a Wista with three holders and lens going locally.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I strongly recommend considering buying Jobo Expert Drums to get consistent development results.

 

[ignatiu5]

...and not too expensive...

I think it would be very helpful in guiding responses if you define what you deem to be not too expensive. Your budget might be completely different from that of some replying here.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Moving from medium format to large format (4x5), is not the same as moving from small to medium format....not by a long chalk. The control you have over each sheet of film, for example....
If you have a darkroom, you can work with trays. If you have a lot of money, go for the Jobos. I use trays as well as BTZS tubes for 4x5 and 8x10. Trays for 14x17. My first 4x5 camera was a stinky old Cambo I bought in Japan. Got to be a pain after a few years having to set it up...lugging around that box... I switched to a used Linhof Tech IV. Loved that camera, but couldn't use some of my lenses with it. It got stolen and was replaced by the Tech V. I sold that and put money towards a Canham 8x10 (with 4x5 reducing back). That was almost twenty years ago. My 14x17 is DIY. A clunker but works beautifully.
Try to get your hands on an old Speed Graphic for dipping your toe in the LF waters...they usually come with a normal lens. Good luck!

 

[Paul Howell]

What are you planning on shooting? Landscapes, products, porturates, street photograph, architecture, field or studio? For field work a field camera or press camera. For quick action shots, Speed Graphic or other press camera, for studio work a view camera. I understand that many shoot landscapes with a view camera, but for long hike, maybe a couple of days on the trail, a field or press camera makes a lighter load. A view camera can be folded up, then you have set it up, takes time. A press camera can be hand held or used with a monopod as well a tripod. So think about what you think you will be shooting before you narrow down your choice.

 

[tim48v]

I've had numerous 4x5 cameras over the last several years.

Which one do I miss? The Super Graphic. Rugged, easy to use and does 95% of what I need, at least 95% of the time. Wish I hadn't sold it.

As for processing your own film, I have to recommend our SP-445 film processing system. In fact, if someone wants to trade a Super Graphic for some film tanks+ whatever, send me an email. Maybe we can make a deal.