Testing and evaluating CatLabs "X Film 320 Pro (2022 version)

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I haven't posted in a while. My health issues are flaring up again, so I can only work for brief moments here and there. I apologize for not responding to other people's posts over the past few days.

My son set up a "Fred Picker" film test for me the other day to see how the Catlabs Pro 320 would respond to a commonly used EI measuring technique among Zone System practitioners. The idea is very simple. I will describe it here so other forum members can try it for themselves. Photographers who do not do Zone System, can probably disregard this post. The procedure has quite a few more variables than my previous curve family test, so, by design, it cannot be as accurate. However, as a lot of Zone System photographers have found over the decades, it is capable of obtaining reasonable results, esp. for sheet film use.
  1. Place a black card in shade (to simulate Zone I).
  2. Put camera on tripod.
  3. Focus on infinity.
  4. Fill the entire frame with the card.
  5. Set the spot meter to ¼ of manufacturer’s recommended speed (here ISO 25, based on my curve family test, in which I used an ISO 100 exposure) (f/2.8** at 1/15s, determined using a Minolta Spotmeter F).
  6. Close down 4 stops (with aperture and/or shutter speed), thus placing exposure on Zone I.
  7. Transfer reading to camera and expose.
  8. Close down and expose subsequent frames in ½ stop increments (I used a Minolta X-570, in good operating shape and a 50mm f/1.7 lens).
I processed the film in D76 1+1 at 20C for 5:45 min. (determined in my curve analysis to be reasonably suitable for my purposes) in a rotary processor. I put the film strip on a light table and took a picture with my cell phone. I labeled the frames in Gimp. The results show that the "working" film speed for Zone System purposes is about ISO 35 (0.1 over B+F, so 0.21). I repeated the test twice on the same roll, giving identical results. Before you guys express your disapproval for the low speed obtained here, let me just say that this procedure is very conservative and focuses on providing ample shadow detail. For example, Fred Picker found Tri-X to be ISO 140. Others will probably corroborate this based on their own experience.
CatlabsPro320_Fred_Picker_Test084159E.jpg

I also exposed a Tiffen color chart metering for ISO 65 (as determined in my curve analysis) and exposed 3 frames. I did this mostly to do a crude, but somewhat effective (I believe) color response analysis. I metered for the grey card to get my exposure (background behid the color chart). The frame was then scanned in using Vuescan's default settings for generic black and white negative. The scanner is old and not meant for photography but that's the best I can do. I also did not control any of the default Vuescan settings, so please, take this with a grain of salt.
Tiffen_Scan_001.jpg
And here's the color picture of the chart for comparison. The spectral response obtained here seems to confirmed the findings from my very first test to some degree. I will abstain from speculating further, as I lack the necessary data to make any kind of conclusion. I still plan on doing a more thorough spectral response test, but it'll have to wait until my health improves a bit.
Tiffen_Q_13_Color_Separation_Guide_.jpg

One last thing. Once again, I am getting no drying marks on either side of this film. I've processed at least four dozen strips Catlabs Pro 320 so far, and the base seems, for whatever reason, resistant to drying marks. I just use a couple of drops of Photo-flo in about 500 ml of tap water for the final rinse. No need for distilled water, which is a huge plus in my book. I don't know much about film base, but perhaps this polyester material somehow allows water to evaporate without leaving marks? Perhaps others could chime in and try to speculate why that might be the case.
 
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I also did not control any of the default Vuescan settings, so please, take this with a grain of salt.

Vuescan default settings apply fill light for shadows and compression for highlights. They are by no means a flat scan, it has a lot of software "improvements". It is the something I reallly don't like about Vuescan.
 
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Vuescan default settings apply fill light for shadows and compression for highlights. They are by no means a flat scan, it has a lot of software "improvements". It is the something I reallly don't like about Vuescan.

Precisely.
 

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CatLabs 320 in DF96. ISO 200. Severe bromide drag on this roll, but when I developed a roll of Acros II after this, using the exact same technique and the same bottle of DF96 - no bromide drag. These pics show it far less than most of the others on this roll.
So I cannot recommend CatLabs to be developed w DF96 Monobath.

Leica R9, Elmarit 28mm 2.8








 

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For those here who have used this film can I ask that you take a quick look at a video review I have posted on the other thread i.e. the original one started by CatLABS. It was done in the U.K. The presenter makes an interesting but not necessarily valid comparison of sorts towards the very end of the video

Why this rather cryptic message? Well I want to ensure that I maintain a distance between what this thread is about compared to the other and I fear that if I put video here and ask for answers it may cause deviation from this thread's purpose. If it were to start the "cut and thrust" here that exists on the other thread I'd feel responsible for it

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

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Huss,
Do I recall correctly that none of the other black and white films you use with DF96 are on polyester base? I ask because it may be that the base material is an important contributor to bromide drag when using a monobath.
 

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For those here who have used this film can I ask that you take a quick look at a video review I have posted on the other thread i.e. the original one started by CatLABS. It was done in the U.K. The presenter makes an interesting but not necessarily valid comparison of sorts towards the very end of the video

Why this rather cryptic message? Well I want to ensure that I maintain a distance between what this thread is about compared to the other and I fear that if I put video here and ask for answers it may cause deviation from this thread's purpose. If it were to start the "cut and thrust" here that exists on the other thread I'd feel responsible for it

Thanks

pentaxuser

It would make more sense just to ask your question here about what others have observed about the colour of the pre-wash or developer when they are dumped out.
This thread is about people's experience with the film.
 
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So a bit about me, I know I always like to know where people are coming from. I'm a collector who started in 1985 and now has over 500 cameras. I just love the design and mechanics. I started developing and printing because my wife was changing careers to graphic design 35 years ago. I haven't had the darkroom equipment out for 15 years, when helping my daughters in photo class, and just started shooting film again last year. So my results are purely observational (luck?), no scientific rigor involved.

Our first attempt, my wife was shooting catlabs 320 pro with a Fuji GS645S It has center weighted metering and we set it at 200 ISO as recommended for HC110. We went to the local camera meet up and shot in some rather challenging conditions. It was indoors at a warehouse brewery with large windows that probably should have been spot metered. I developed as recommended, HC110 for 10.5 minutes. I use an Epson V850 with Silverfast. The negatives were very thin and contrasty, I had to do a lot of adjusting to get a halfway decent scan, even then I wasn't pleased. The histogram was basically a steep hump on each end and nothing in the middle.

Image 1  5.jpg


Image 1 1.jpg


Yep, that's me.


Image 1 .jpg


Image 1  6.jpg
 
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pentaxuser

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CatLabs 320 in DF96. ISO 200. Severe bromide drag on this roll, but when I developed a roll of Acros II after this, using the exact same technique and the same bottle of DF96 - no bromide drag. These pics show it far less than most of the others on this roll.
So I cannot recommend CatLabs to be developed w DF96 Monobath.










So what might it be about the CatLABS film that may cause bromide drag that doesn't cause this with Acros?

I know nothing about emulsion technology to even hazard a guess as to why Acros emulsion is resistant to bromide drag in DF Monobath not CatLABS 320 Pro

pentaxuser
 
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Thank you @Huss and @Dwight Anderson for posting your awesome photographs! I have never tried DF96 Monobath, though, so I cannot comment as to the possible reason for bromide drag.

Since I did the Fred Picker test for Zone System photographers, I thought I'd include a plot of how the 5:45 min. film curve relates to the typical seven-stop subject luminance range and to the resulting negative. This assumes the use of a condenser enlarger. This film shows some nice and wide tonality in ZV and ZVI, with some compression elsewhere. I think this is very consistent with most of the photographs shown in this thread, in my opinion.
catLabs320_ProoferPlotsFinal.png
 

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Huss,
Do I recall correctly that none of the other black and white films you use with DF96 are on polyester base? I ask because it may be that the base material is an important contributor to bromide drag when using a monobath.

I don't think any of my other films I've used have the polyester base, as this is the only one that I noticed how physically thin it is. Which contributed to my difficulties to loading it on my Arista reels. Thing is, the first two rolls did not have bromide drag, but DF96 'weakens' with use and it seems that this film is much more susceptible to that than the others I have been using.
My temps were spot on - I always make sure of that - and my agitation routine is also consistent. So I think it just points to a degree of incompatibility with this film and DF96 Monobath.
 

Huss

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So what might it be about the CatLABS film that may cause bromide drag that doesn't cause this with Acros?

I know nothing about emulsion technology to even hazard a guess as to why Acros emulsion is resistant to bromide drag in DF Monobath not CatLABS 320 Pro

pentaxuser

Matt has a good suggestion that it may be the thinner polyester base that CatLabs uses. It's not just Acros that is more 'resistant', I have not had this issue w/ Ilford, Kodak, Foma etc products.
 
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It would make more sense just to ask your question here about what others have observed about the colour of the pre-wash or developer when they are dumped out.
This thread is about people's experience with the film.
In my experience, the dye released in the processing is somewhat dark, coolish, grey.
 

pentaxuser

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It would make more sense just to ask your question here about what others have observed about the colour of the pre-wash or developer when they are dumped out.
This thread is about people's experience with the film.

OK Matt that's fine. I was just worried that in answering my question people may rightly ask why my interest and then if I were to answer that we could morph into speculation and then slide into the "cut and thrust" here that may be better confined to the other thread

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

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Our first attempt, my wife was shooting a Fuji GS645S. It has center weighted metering and we set it at 200 ISO as recommended for HC110.

Thanks Dwight for sharing your experience. If you don't mind, I'll add the name of the film somewhere in your post, so that if the post is quoted elsewhere - it happens - the context will be clear.
 

pentaxuser

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Matt has a good suggestion that it may be the thinner polyester base that CatLabs uses. It's not just Acros that is more 'resistant', I have not had this issue w/ Ilford, Kodak, Foma etc products.

Yes he may be right but unless it is a thinner polyester that is unique to this film I'd have thought that by now other users of DF 96 Monobath would have seen the same bromide drag with similar thickness polyester base film?

Maybe we don't have enough users of DF96 here on Photrio to know?

pentaxuser
 
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The lower slope in the right third of this graph means the film is "self-compensating" (a term I just invented). That means to get compensation, you don't need to use Diafine; this film compresses highlights for you. That aspect of this film could be beneficial because the human eye is less sensitive to shadow contrast than highlights. Therefore, it's best to have more contrast in the shadows, as that curve portrays. If that curve retains its shape when the film is not overdeveloped, I'll be tempted to buy some.

This was way back in post #158 but I think @albada might be on to something here. Even with shortish development time and constant agitation (see my post #261 above), the highlights in ZVII and ZVIII are getting compressed. It's not a huge effect but I think we can see it in a lot of the awesome photographs posted here.
 
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For our next attempt at shooting Catlabs 320 Pro, I decided to over expose and under develop, at least based on the box recomendations. Meters were set to 100 and developing time was reduced 20% to 8:15 in HC110. I should note that in all of the rolls I have developed in HC110 the grain is very fine.

I shot my Dora Goodman 6x6 3d printed camera with a Tessar 100mm F3.5 mounted. It's from a Graflex XL and the Synchro Compur has been tested to be accurate. I used a phone app for metering, who knows how accurate that is, but I've been happy with the results. My wife was shooting her Pentax ZX5n with a Pentax 35-70 F3.5-4.5 zoom. She was using matrix metering. It was a bright sunny day with no clouds, late in the afternoon.

I was very happy with the scans, the histograms looked normal, some peaking in the shadows, some in the highlights, but good midtones on every shot. The only adjustments made were to bring the highlights down to the top of the histogram results. I would definitely shoot and develop it this way again. It still has a moody look, but much denser negatives with more detail in the shadows.

Some of my wife's photos, I think the vignetting is from an old hinged lens cap that is intruding:

Image 1 6.jpg


Image 1 .jpg


Image 1 5.jpg



And some of mine, scale focusing a 100mm lens is a leap of faith.

Image (2).jpg


Image (3) (2).jpg


Image (3) (4).jpg


Image (6).jpg


The last photo has white concrete in full sunlight and completely shaded overhang with plenty of detail.
 

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@Dwight Anderson, it looks like you have found your personal EI and development technique...the "overexposed/underdeveloped" images look great.

@Huss, IIRC, didn't you have problems with Shanghai's GP3 220 in DF-96, also?
 
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MattKing

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Yes he may be right but unless it is a thinner polyester that is unique to this film I'd have thought that by now other users of DF 96 Monobath would have seen the same bromide drag with similar thickness polyester base film?

Maybe we don't have enough users of DF96 here on Photrio to know?

pentaxuser

I don't know whether it is the thickness of the polyester base that matters.
I would think that that the permeability and "slipperyness" and other physical characteristics of the material would be more important when it comes to evaluating how fluids flow around the substrate when it is sitting in the monobath.
Bromide drag is, after all, rather physical.
 
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I don't know whether it is the thickness of the polyester base that matters.
I would think that that the permeability and "slipperyness" and other physical characteristics of the material would be more important when it comes to evaluating how fluids flow around the substrate when it is sitting in the monobath.
Bromide drag is, after all, rather physical.

Perhaps those physical characteristics are also the reason why this film dries so flat and clean, without nasty drying marks?
 

MattKing

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Perhaps those physical characteristics are also the reason why this film dries so flat and clean, without nasty drying marks?

Polyester films do dry flat. They are also dimensionally more stable. As for cleanliness, it wouldn't surprise me.
 

Huss

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For our next attempt at shooting Catlabs 320 Pro, I decided to over expose and under develop, at least based on the box recomendations. Meters were set to 100 and developing time was reduced 20% to 8:15 in HC110. I should note that in all of the rolls I have developed in HC110 the grain is very fine.

I shot my Dora Goodman 6x6 3d printed camera with a Tessar 100mm F3.5 mounted. It's from a Graflex XL and the Synchro Compur has been tested to be accurate. I used a phone app for metering, who knows how accurate that is, but I've been happy with the results. My wife was shooting her Pentax ZX5n with a Pentax 35-70 F3.5-4.5 zoom. She was using matrix metering. It was a bright sunny day with no clouds, late in the afternoon.

I was very happy with the scans, the histograms looked normal, some peaking in the shadows, some in the highlights, but good midtones on every shot. The only adjustments made were to bring the highlights down to the top of the histogram results. I would definitely shoot and develop it this way again. It still has a moody look, but much denser negatives with more detail in the shadows.

Some of my wife's photos, I think the vignetting is from an old hinged lens cap that is intruding:

View attachment 320468

View attachment 320469

View attachment 320471


And some of mine, scale focusing a 100mm lens is a leap of faith.

View attachment 320472

View attachment 320473

View attachment 320474

View attachment 320475

The last photo has white concrete in full sunlight and completely shaded overhang with plenty of detail.

Those pics over the lake are so nice.
 
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