Temperature Importance of Film Wash Water

F5B&W · Aug 14, 2016

With reference to the sticky post on Film Wash.

I live and work in rural Az, and the summertime temps of my wash eater is ambient air or hotter. Water comes out of the tap at 110 deg F or hotter, and won't cool off. (It makes showering very interesting.). So, if I've refrigerated my developer, stop bath and fixer (not using a HCA yet) to 68 deg.F, then I'm washing in H2O of 110+ deg.F. I think I'm seeing an effect on my 6x6cm and 35mm negatives of the temp shift in my negs, but I'm not positive of the cause.

My question is, how high of a temperature shift can the stock of HP5 and/or TRI-X before affecting the image?

Ian Grant · Aug 14, 2016

Work at a higher temperature it'll make things easier to control, I work at 27ºC (approx 80ºF) when in Turkey and adjust development times to compensate, that's my water temperature. Then use Ilford's film wash technique which can be found on their website as it uses a minimal amount of water so you can refrigerate enough for the complete wash cycle.

Temperature shifts can increase apparent grainines,s this is due to surface artifacts (Kodak's term) others call it incipient or micro-reticulation. With 120 films this can affect the anti-curl gelatin layer on the rear of the film as well as the emulsion surface. Try to keep the entire cycle +/- 1º C of the chosen temperature, don't go higher than 28ºC.

Ian

Jim Noel · Aug 14, 2016

A very good answer, Ian.

TareqPhoto · Aug 14, 2016

I have the same problem, the water from the tap is really hot, and i only develop at night when the water is slightly calming down, but still nearly 30-35ºC, just for very short seconds i can get little cooler water nearly 20ºC, i was thinking to keep a bottle of tap water in the fridge so i can mix it with the tap water to balance the temp a bit.

From what i read, the warmer the water is, the shorter the development time it will be, so should i just go with hot/warm water mixing instead of that 22-24ºC ones?

pentaxuser · Aug 14, 2016

F5B&W said:
With reference to the sticky post on Film Wash.

I live and work in rural Az,

I might just manage to live as in "stay alive" but work when the ambient temp means that cold tap water is at 110F. No chance
Seriously though a 42F difference between dev temp and wash temp is likely to be too much even for a tough film like HP5+

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 14, 2016

I'd suggest you:
1) drain fixer off the film;
2) fill and agitate and dump a couple of times with temperature controlled water;
3) fill once more with temperature controlled water;
4) let the tank sit until the temperature controlled water comes up to the ambient temperature; then
5) finish washing in the warm water.

F5B&W · Aug 14, 2016

pentaxuser said:
I might just manage to live as in "stay alive" but work when the ambient temp means that cold tap water is at 110F. No chance
Seriously though a 42F difference between dev temp and wash temp is likely to be too much even for a tough film like HP5+

pentaxuser

You then understand my problem. Adaptation is the key to survival.

gone · Aug 14, 2016

There should be no effect from the above temps you mentioned on your negs. Everything chemically has already been done to them. The image has been chemically developed, it has been chemically fixed, and now you are simply washing out the fixer. As long as your wash water isn't hot enough to damage the plastic film base it can do no damage to the image on the neg. It is "fixed". I once accidentally turned on the hot faucet instead of the cold and washed my 120 negs at 130+ temps for a long time w/ no effect whatsoever.

I'd be willing to wager a month's wages that says on any film you use, if you develop and fix it properly (the only time chemicals are actually interacting w/ the images on the plastic film base), then you can wash the film in the hottest or coldest home water you have w/o any effects whatsoever.

F5B&W · Aug 14, 2016

MattKing said:
I'd suggest you:
1) drain fixer off the film;
2) fill and agitate and dump a couple of times with temperature controlled water;
3) fill once more with temperature controlled water;
4) let the tank sit until the temperature controlled water comes up to the ambient temperature; then
5) finish washing in the warm water.

I will have to try this. Thanks.

Alan9940 · Aug 14, 2016

I live in AZ, also, and here is my method of dealing with summer temps: the night before I plan to develop I put a gallon of tap water and a quart of distilled water in the fridge; the next morning, I mix a water bath of tap water and the chilled tap water to the temp I typically use (68F or 75F) for development; then I mix developer, stop, and fix using room temp distilled water and the chilled distilled water; final wash is completed using the Ilford method with left over water from mixing for the water bath. Usually, the final wash water has raised in temp a few degrees, but certainly within a range that has no effect on the film. I've been working this way for 16 years and never had a processing problem with regard to temp variation.

MattKing · Aug 14, 2016

momus said:
There should be no effect from the above temps you mentioned on your negs. Everything chemically has already been done to them. The image has been chemically developed, it has been chemically fixed, and now you are simply washing out the fixer. As long as your wash water isn't hot enough to damage the plastic film base it can do no damage to the image on the neg. It is "fixed".

The image bearing silver is still suspended in gelatin and the gelatin is still pretty soft when you reach the wash water stage. So the film is susceptible to physical damage due to temperature variation.

TareqPhoto · Aug 14, 2016

I don't have distilled water here, all my mixes are with the tap water, i do get that filtration system for the kitchen but not sure how good it is compared to the standard tap water and the distilled water, it turns the tap water to drinkable, which means it will remove some elements that are in tap water, but is it good enough for mixing then?

Are there a machine that can be used to control the water temp? A machine that i can fill with water then i choose the temp and it will control it according to what i choose, this will help for sure until i can buy an affordable processor then i won't worry.

Ian Grant · Aug 14, 2016

TareqPhoto said:
I don't have distilled water here, all my mixes are with the tap water, i do get that filtration system for the kitchen but not sure how good it is compared to the standard tap water and the distilled water, it turns the tap water to drinkable, which means it will remove some elements that are in tap water, but is it good enough for mixing then?

Are there a machine that can be used to control the water temp? A machine that i can fill with water then i choose the temp and it will control it according to what i choose, this will help for sure until i can buy an affordable processor then i won't worry.

Our tap water in Turkey is undrinkable it has a high salt content, a kitchen water softener would work but it's so cheap to buy good drinkable water 15 litres ate a time. I use the tap water for diluting my chemistry but bottled water for the funal wash.

There are machines that can cool & control water temperature but they won't be cheap. I needed water just above freezing in the mid 1970s and took the refridgerator unit from a discared but working fridge and placed the cooling parts from the freezer compartment in a tank of water fed by a commercial deionising filter. I have circuit boards that could control temperature quite accurately, they were for machines I made a decade later. So I know I could do it but I've no idea where the circuit diagrams are.

Small drinking water coolers are relatively inexpensive and that would be an option. Mixer valves that control temperature from a cold and hot supply are vailable, thet seem to be far more common in the US and rare in Europe.

Ian

TareqPhoto · Aug 14, 2016

I am planning to add a cooler for our main tank so the water is remain cold in all time even in summer, i know those coolers aren't cheap, but i will install it once, i remember the person who lived[rented] in my own house here was having that cooler but sounds he took it with him when he left.

I remembered that i was using some stored bottles in fridge to use for diluting chemicals, so i think i will return back to this until i can have a cooler.

I just did shoot film yesterday evening, so i need to cool down the tap water.

TareqPhoto · Aug 14, 2016

What is the chances if i added one small cube of ice in a tube or glass and use that hot tube water? the hot water will melt the ice no mater what, but then what will be the final temp then if you have any idea?

mklw1954 · Aug 14, 2016

The Ilford film and paper washing technique to minimize water use indicates, for film, that the wash water should be +/- 5C. (9F.) of the processing chemical temperature.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/assets/20154231237291446.pdf

kreeger · Aug 14, 2016

Assuming this is being done in doors, where the temperature is 72-75 degrees with air conditioning, I would recommend you put your water into large plastic jugs and use that water, following the Ilford method. That should not be enough of a temp shift to cause any concerns.

Ian Grant · Aug 15, 2016

mklw1954 said:
The Ilford film and paper washing technique to minimize water use indicates, for film, that the wash water should be +/- 5C. (9F.) of the processing chemical temperature.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/assets/20154231237291446.pdf

Unfortunately that's not tight enough tolerance and can lead to poor results. The problem is that some films are better hardened than others and introducing lax temperature control is the easiest way of losing quality. So with nsome films you might be OK and others it's a problem sometime major with emulsion frilling off and reticulating and that's film from a major manufacturer..

It's so easy to keep the whole cycle +/- 1ºC, it's pure laziness not to, in fact when I'm in Turkey it's easy to keep within +/- 0.2C because the tap water temperature is so consistent.

Ian

Helinophoto · Aug 15, 2016

Don't forget that the temperature also shift during development (especially with long developing times), meaning that even if you start out, colder than ambient, your film may be hotter than that at the end of the development cycle.

If you then pour in cold water.........

And then the fixer?

Whatever you do, try to keep everything at around +-5 degrees to avoid temperature shock and recticulation-issues.
No idea what times you will be looking at when you get close to 30 degrees Celsius though, but by using developers like HC-110 and dilutions 1:64, you can probably still get down to manageable times..

At my place, I try to have shorter'ish develop times (between 5-8 minutes, since the temperature also change during development), then I adjust the rinsing (stop) water bath to whatever the temperature is after the development, I adjust the final wash to whatever the temperature is after fixing.

You see, my fixer-bottle is always closer to ambient temperature and I tend to raise -slowly- the temperature to this during the stop-phase
(but it depends, where I live, the fixer can be as hot as 27 degrees in the summer, while in the winter, it can be as low as 16-17 degrees).

If things are within 2-3 degrees after development, I rarely bother do do any adjustments at all.

tomfrh · Aug 15, 2016

I've recently been soaking/washing with water about 40C / 100F after 20C/70F dev and fix.

I know people say you shouldn't do it, however the hot soak seems to dislodge the TMY2 purple stain quite well, and the film seems fine.

TareqPhoto · Aug 15, 2016

I remember the first time ever i developed the film during a workshop the tap water was very warm or say nearly hot, and the film came out fine, so why not again, and i just exposed 2 films yesterday, both are expired, i will develop soon if i can buy some tubes or beakers in plastic to avoid using glass.

Just to be in safe side, i will keep one bottle of water in the fridge so i can at least mix it with hot/warm water if necessary and manage to have the temp within, in fact always keep my temp within the recommended temp even in hot weather by using that cold water stored in fridge, so that i always get fine results, it is easy to do, i will not make that hot water controlling me, but i wanted to know what will be the result if i used a bit warmer temp water and short time in processing?

And the question that i always ask before, if i don't print, how can i know if the roll is done fine or it is acceptable and not bad?

RalphLambrecht · Aug 15, 2016

F5B&W said:
With reference to the sticky post on Film Wash.

I live and work in rural Az, and the summertime temps of my wash eater is ambient air or hotter. Water comes out of the tap at 110 deg F or hotter, and won't cool off. (It makes showering very interesting.). So, if I've refrigerated my developer, stop bath and fixer (not using a HCA yet) to 68 deg.F, then I'm washing in H2O of 110+ deg.F. I think I'm seeing an effect on my 6x6cm and 35mm negatives of the temp shift in my negs, but I'm not positive of the cause.

My question is, how high of a temperature shift can the stock of HP5 and/or TRI-X before affecting the image?

warm water actually washes more effectively than cold water but I wouldn't go beyond 27C tp protect the emulsion. In your case, I would cool some water with ice and use it for the Alford washing method.

Paul Howell · Aug 15, 2016

Alan9940 said:
I live in AZ, also, and here is my method of dealing with summer temps: the night before I plan to develop I put a gallon of tap water and a quart of distilled water in the fridge; the next morning, I mix a water bath of tap water and the chilled tap water to the temp I typically use (68F or 75F) for development; then I mix developer, stop, and fix using room temp distilled water and the chilled distilled water; final wash is completed using the Ilford method with left over water from mixing for the water bath. Usually, the final wash water has raised in temp a few degrees, but certainly within a range that has no effect on the film. I've been working this way for 16 years and never had a processing problem with regard to temp variation.

Like Allan I also live Arizona and my tap water is around 90 in the summer. In the past I use Dianfine but even then the wash was so hot the emulsion came off. I now have a home make chiller. 5 gallon plastic bucket, a coil of copper tubing in the bucket sealed with silicon adhesive. Fill with water and ice, water from comes in to top of the coil, the bottom is connected to a film washer. I use a hypo clearing bath Perma Wash but still give the negatives a 10 mint wash. By the end of the wash cycle the tap is back to about 80, then photo flow and dry. Washing prints at 90 degrees has not caused any issues, either FB or RC.

LAG · Aug 15, 2016

F5B&W said:
With reference to the sticky post on Film Wash.

I live and work in rural Az, and the summertime temps of my wash eater is ambient air or hotter. Water comes out of the tap at 110 deg F or hotter, and won't cool off. (It makes showering very interesting.). So, if I've refrigerated my developer, stop bath and fixer (not using a HCA yet) to 68 deg.F, then I'm washing in H2O of 110+ deg.F. I think I'm seeing an effect on my 6x6cm and 35mm negatives of the temp shift in my negs, but I'm not positive of the cause.

My question is, how high of a temperature shift can the stock of HP5 and/or TRI-X before affecting the image?

Excuse me

Nowadays, most of the film manufactured is incredibly resistant to high temperature changes, even with some of them if you try to make some kind of reticulation intentionally, you’ll discover is not so easy. The difference in temperature must be very bad calibrated and deliberately set, to do something wrong. The temperature range is fairly broad.

Anyway, if your tap water is like that (or whatever …), I think that the shortest way to get all alike is simply adapt the chemicals or wait for the water to go down (if you get the tap water some time before the process it will fall, or you can use it at night …) or try to keep your chemicals out of the fridge (at a room temperature as fresh as possible, or at least remove them some time before the chemical process to get to the ambient temperature …) in order to make the differences shorter or equal.

The temperature is important in many ways but in, the lesser degree (never been said better), the more distant from the chemical action.

Rick Jones · Aug 15, 2016

My question is, how high of a temperature shift can the stock of HP5 and/or TRI-X before affecting the image? Quite some time ago I had the same question so pulled my copy of Richard J. Henry's "Controls in Black and White Photography" (Second Edition). Seems he had the same question after reading numerous cautions to maintain all solutions at +/- 1 degree. He detailed his testing on p. 234/5. He developed TriX at 68 degrees with subsequent solutions swinging fron 62 to 80 degrees. He found no issues whatsoever. Now your 110 water supply is another issue altogether, however, if you could devise a way to control your solution temps between 68 and 80 I believe you would be fine based on Henry's findings. For those not familiar with RJH his whole purpose for the book was to debunk many of the unsubstantiated claims/statements he was reading about the B&W analog process. He is my go to guy for questions like yours.

Temperature Importance of Film Wash Water

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Ian Grant

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TareqPhoto

pentaxuser

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TareqPhoto

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mklw1954

kreeger

Ian Grant

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TareqPhoto

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Paul Howell

LAG

Rick Jones

Temperature Importance of Film Wash Water

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