Tariffs and Film and Paper prices

[bfilm]

So for color professional films, will Fujifilm bring anything back for Global markets? (And for USA customers willing to pay the tariffs?)

It would be great to have consistent availability of the Fujichrome films, and maybe a new Fujicolor Pro film.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It just got announced. 10% on the UK, 20% on the EU. With typical markups, that means at least 20% more for Ilford film and paper here, which has already gone way way up in the past year. Considerably more percent for Fuji color paper, although it's still likely to be less expensive than b&w printing. Yet digital printing is likely to get hit even harder, since most of the papers are also imported and routinely have significantly higher markups. And the price for imported electronics will skyrocket. So it's not just darkroom printing that's going to suffer.

And when one brand goes up, competitors use the opportunity to raise prices too, even if they're not subject to tariff.

Real Estate expenses are going to get hit worst of all. Where do most of the building materials and supplies come from? Certainly not the US. Are natural disasters likely to tame down or get worse? A stroke of a pen won't stop those; nor will denial. Which direction is property insurance expense likely to go as these disaster increase, down a little, or way way up? Who are "they" trying to fool?

Why would anyone at Kodak be supporting tariffs? Market instability or reciprocal tariffs are the last thing they need. They're not a self-sufficient island by themselves either. Industrial supply chains are necessarily deeply interconnected. Nobody in this country with clout except one person demanded tariffs. Very very few think they're a good idea. But it's now going to make life more expensive for nearly all of us, regardless. I'll keep printing, but probably less frequently.

 

[FotoD]

But now you are talking about collective punishment. It seems to me that is when everyone loses.

It could be that no one at Kodak personally supports the tariffs. Just that you would be punishing one of the most important companies left in analog photography.

Maybe Kodak will open a new coating line in Canada or Europe. I think that is one of the purposes with these unilateral tariffs, to motivate companies to relocate.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Where would Kodak get the capital or even find sufficient demand to expand production in another country at this time? We talking about a significant season of trade chaos arriving upon us, given the highly unpredictable key player involved. It's getting very difficult right now to reasonably estimate necessary expenses. Nobody with a brain in their head is going to loan an already underfunded manufacturing entity a dime under those circumstances. Meanwhile, the ivory tower economists higher up probably don't even see a business like Kodak as anything more than collateral damage, just another little ant that gets accidentally stepped on. That's why boycotting Kodak (or Ilford for that matter) is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Just to get back for a moment to the "stupid" part of this whole matter: Trump imposed a 10% reciprocal tariff on the Heard and McDonald Islands.

Which are uninhabited.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Maybe fish have been cheating us. You never know.

 

[bfilm]

Long enough, have the Antarctic animals been taking advantage of the United States.

But in all seriousness, they probably got caught up in the 10% minimum tariff that was set.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I was referring to your suggestion that "manufacturing of a wide variety of products moved offshore to places with lower labor cost and looser environmental/labor regulations." This is certainly unfortunately true, but what I was saying is that analog photography is a rare field that has not outsourced manufacturing to countries with little or no environmental regulation and low wages. Most of the analog photography equipment, film, paper, and chemicals are still manufactured by the traditional companies in their longtime locations.

That was the general historical trend. However, blanket import taxes ("tariffs") don't consider any such history. No matter that HARMAN is in the UK or FOMA is in the Czech Republic. Irrespective of either's labor costs / environmental practices, their products will be taxed just like anything else when it arrives in the U.S. As for equipment, the only two new film cameras currently offered new -- other than the extremely low-volume, almost "hobby shop" view camera builders others have referred to -- are the Pentax 17 and Rollei 35AF. The former is manufactured in Vietnam and the latter in Hong Kong, i.e. China. The Nikon F6 I bought new a bit more than four years ago was made in Japan. Expanding to digital, the Nikon D810 and D850 I own were made in Thailand. Nothing photographic will escape this import tax situation.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The tariffs will effect us from digital cameras and film to paper and chemicals. I am not happy about the tariffs especially because it will take years even decades to build new factories and the overseas labor rates will always be lower than in the US.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

So, in that case, I'll go back to Kodak to avoid the tarrif. That is the whole idea.

What US-made gelatin silver paper will you print those negatives on?

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

The tariffs will effect us from digital cameras and film to paper and chemicals. I am not happy about the tariffs especially because it will take years even decades to build new factories and the overseas labor rates will always be lower than in the US.

It is not just digital cameras, film, paper and chemicals. The bigger picture is something to worry about.
Outdoor equipment is majority manufactured in China, Vietnam (among, Patagonia, The North Face, Keen, etc.), plus some specialist equipment in many parts of Europe (e.g. Bosnia-Herzegovina, is an emergent and excellent manufacturing hub for apparel). All the stuff (make your list!) you take for granted as essential for your endeavours in photography — yeah, film, but also tripods, raincoats, packs, boots, sunglasses, tents, sleeping bags...the list is a very long one, will be affected by price rises that many people just will not be able to afford, unless there is a significant jump in wages or active, continuous discounting. Stuff about photography and materials is a very, very small part of the overall bigger picture. But, so be it. The US is setting itself up for a recession and job losses on a scale never imagined before. Might also be the death knell of NATO and looking ahead in Australia we are now not regarding the US as a friend, and will likely review the AUKUS submarine agreement.

 

[GregY]

What US-made gelatin silver paper will you print those negatives on?

....bingo

 

[GregY]

But now you are talking about collective punishment. It seems to me that is when everyone loses.

It could be that no one at Kodak personally supports the tariffs. Just that you would be punishing one of the most important companies left in analog photography.

Of course, there are other film stocks, and you are free to choose those if you prefer, and support your favorites.

If you follow the news... there's been quite a strong but quiet resistance....
Kentucky bourbon has been removed from many shelves in many provinces.... grocery shoppers are choosing goods by country of origin.
We're no one's 51 state. Every buyer get to vote with their dollars. I've used Kodak films for decades......now i've switched to Ilford.....

 

[Terrence Brennan]

Maybe Kodak will open a new coating line in Canada or Europe. I think that is one of the purposes with these unilateral tariffs, to motivate companies to relocate.

We can only hope! But the Kodak Canada processing operations in Brampton and the manufacturing operations in Toronto are long closed.

 

[bfilm]

If you follow the news... there's been quite a strong but quiet resistance....
Kentucky bourbon has been removed from many shelves in many provinces.... grocery shoppers are choosing goods by country of origin.
We're no one's 51 state. Every buyer get to vote with their dollars. I've used Kodak films for decades......now i've switched to Ilford.....

It just seems to me, if Kodak themselves haven't done anything to upset you, that this might be the wrong course of action to take. The analog photography world is pretty fragile nowadays. And there are people you will agree or disagree with in any country. Avoiding Kodak to show your disagreement with the US government, I don't think is going to have any desirable effect. Now, if you just prefer another film stock, then that is another matter.

 

[mshchem]

I suspect that Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris are concerned what will happen to sales in China. Now China can produce film and paper domestically.

 

[koraks]

Moderator note: I've just removed about half of the posts from the last two pages because they had nothing to do with photography/photographic materials and only constituted geopolitical commentary. This thread can continue as long as it remains directly related with photography.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I worry that the price increase of Fuji slide film in the US will reduce sales and that will mean Fuji discontinue the films as unviable as they've done with so many others.

Looks like instant film will be increasing in price with no US made alternative.

 

[tykos]

My post was merely a response to the very first post. Your question should be addressed to that person. There may very well be an adjustment to trade tariffs all across the board to things having nothing to do with photo supplies other than in the broadest sense. The price of widgets and the price of flanges are 2 entirely unrelated markets, other that the fact hey both contribute to the rise and fall of tides, which in turn raises or lowers all ships. Who knows, maybe some small group of Canadians will get mad at the tariff talk and set up a 36 inch wide film coating and slitting line in a vacant rental building of modest size and make film and paper that rivals Kodak with their huge 15 foot wide coating machines. But what do I know? Apparently there's anger out there or this thread would not have been started. Anger can be a useful motivator. One thing's for sure. I've resorted to Xray film and coating cyanotype paper to escape the present prices on the good stuff.

oh well, there's a guy with 99% of the work done (a full coating facility avalailable and a working formulation for a sought-after emulsion) that cannot coat paper because the final cost would be too high.
and we have a once huge yellow entity that is not even thinking about it, probably for the same reason.

I don't think someone starting from scratch with zero experience in a vacant building (lol) is a feasible option at the moment.

 

[Agulliver]

Where would Kodak get the capital or even find sufficient demand to expand production in another country at this time? We talking about a significant season of trade chaos arriving upon us, given the highly unpredictable key player involved. It's getting very difficult right now to reasonably estimate necessary expenses. Nobody with a brain in their head is going to loan an already underfunded manufacturing entity a dime under those circumstances.

Maybe Elon would fund it, then....

But getting back to being serious, you are correct. Nobody in their right mind is going to fund a new coating line. Demand is up, but not sufficiently to fund the astronomical costs of setting up new lines. The unknown factor here is whether Fuji have any capability to resume Japanese production of C41 films. Because outside of Kodak, there's only really Harman Phoenix and occasional output from Adox and Orwo/Original Wolfen.

 

[brbo]

I worry that the price increase of Fuji slide film in the US will reduce sales and that will mean Fuji discontinue the films as unviable as they've done with so many others.

If you've got a feeling that demand for Fuji slide film is somewhat weak compared to their huge supply, let me put you at ease. There is no lack of demand for Fuji slide film (it was cheaper and a lot of people prefer it to Ektachrome) and Fuji supply is so small that it doesn't matter anyway. There will always be a couple of guys that can buy a few boxes that Fuji produces at any price.

 

[tykos]

Right, but as you have noticed, those have gotten their own tariff. Those are not raw materials, but processed materials that are among those they are trying to encourage to be manufactured in the US. I am not saying that this is a good or bad idea, just that it is how I understand the approach they are proposing.

except US have close to full employment rate and is kicking away a decent amount of unregistered people that used to work.
So, when all these new fancy factories will be ready (in 5-10 years), where will they find people to run them?

 

[ChrisGalway]

It is not just digital cameras, film, paper and chemicals. The bigger picture is something to worry about.
Outdoor equipment is majority manufactured in China, Vietnam (among, Patagonia, The North Face, Keen, etc.), plus some specialist equipment in many parts of Europe (e.g. Bosnia-Herzegovina, is an emergent and excellent manufacturing hub for apparel). All the stuff (make your list!) you take for granted as essential for your endeavours in photography — yeah, film, but also tripods, raincoats, packs, boots, sunglasses, tents, sleeping bags...the list is a very long one, will be affected by price rises that many people just will not be able to afford, unless there is a significant jump in wages or active, continuous discounting. Stuff about photography and materials is a very, very small part of the overall bigger picture. But, so be it. The US is setting itself up for a recession and job losses on a scale never imagined before. Might also be the death knell of NATO and looking ahead in Australia we are now not regarding the US as a friend, and will likely review the AUKUS submarine agreement.

Good point ... and why stop there? Many of us take most of our photos when travelling, and travel (both ways) between the rest of the World and the US is already falling. (I have already already declined one all-expenses-paid visit to Washington this Spring.)

More isolation for the US.

It's difficult to take photos via Zoom or Teams!

 

[brbo]

except US have close to full employment rate and is kicking away a decent amount of unregistered people that used to work.
So, when all these new fancy factories will be ready (in 5-10 years), where will they find people to run them?

Well, as you surely know, Italy once provided such service to the USA. Although, if Italy increases its export of young white males to USA, will they be subject to tariffs?

This gets complicated. Fast.

Back on topic, I admit that I panicked and ordered 500 EUR worth of Kodak film yesterday. So, if you are quick enough you are not paying for this new reality... Although, surprised how little film that actually is, I'm probably selling off most of my cameras (that are not half-frame).

Maybe I'll wait and see what happens with Harman Phoenix and Lucky C-41 project. Maybe, we will have to shorten our 10-foot poles that we wowed we'd never touch those films with...

 

[Don_ih]

At least in Canada, so far the claim is that revenue generated by tariffs (say, that extra amount you pay for Kodak film) will go toward supporting Canadian industry that has suffered due to the tariffs imposed by the US. Don't know what they're doing with that money down there...

Stores here (grocery stores, for example) now have little maple leaves or similar on shelf price tags to indicate products made in Canada.

An unfortunate side effect is the fact that American businesses, including Kodak and Photographers Formulary, will suffer due to loss of sales. If they get tariffs applied, that is. Kodak film might be tariff-exempt due to USMCA compliance (I don't know).