Talk Of New Film Cameras

[AgX]

We should not overlook that in the last years we had two attempts starting manufacture of a new film 35mm SLR. One was faked, the other ill-fated from the start.

 

[Helge]

We should not overlook that in the last years we had two attempts starting manufacture of a new film 35mm SLR. One was faked, the other ill-fated from the start.

It’s hard to see what we should learn from this?
Both projects was so obviously incredibly naive at the outset that they couldn’t be taken seriously.
One overall lesson we might derive, is that you just cannot make a straight “classic” film camera anymore and expect it to sell.

For one, it’s impossible for supply and technology reasons.

Another is that you are still completing against the glorious past.

You’d have to offer something truly unique and better.
An adaptall mount SLR with LED light in front for $2000 is not going to cut it.

Consumer entertainment technology as such has become cheaper, and you’d find a very limited market for such a device.
And the consumer is probably also more savvy and informed (or would like to think they are). So they demand something extra than what they can buy in the local listings or on eBay for a $100.

 

[Donald Qualls]

So they demand something extra than what they can buy in the local listings or on eBay for a $100.

And there's the real problem -- the "chicken and egg" issue. You need a camera that's not priced out of sight in order to sell enough to even make back the R&D (or have a successful Kickstarter campaign, to use a more modern scenario), but you can't make anything in that price regime that will compare with what's available in "near mint" from eBay for a tenth the price. And if we wait until the used cameras start to dry up (due to the ever-present "trashed it because Uncle died and no one in the family knew anything about those old Contax and Zeiss Ikon cameras", or to simple age related failures), the knowledge and tooling and market (and perhaps availability of film) will have dried up as well.

Electronics can replace mechanicals at much lower cost today, and if you leave out all the "fancy" stuff, you avoid the thousands of hours of software writing/debugging/testing to design a camera with "modern" levels of controls. You wind up with a fully manual camera with electronic guts -- shutter operates with a simple (microcontroller-managed) timer and actuators and spring driven curtain, meter could be a camera chip for a cheap flip phone (no focusing needed, and single center spot is simple with such a unit, potentially with a switched diffuser to convert to center-weighted). Build it all into a plastic body the same size as a K-1000 or M645 and make it compatible with affordable lenses, and you'd have a camera you could mass produce for a few hundred dollars. Ideally, give it an easily replaced, common cell size (single 16450?) rechargeable battery, and the only thing that would make it cost more than a lower end cell phone is that you're not likely to make ten million of them...

 

[Deleted member 88956]

not sure what the allure is of a new film camera theses days, there is no demand for an expensive high tech, nor is there for a basic one with decades of reliable choices still out there. I think we would need to see film demand turned on its head before new film camera will make developmental sense.

 

[Chan Tran]

It would take a camera manufacturer to do it and not a start up.A successful camera sfhould be simple like what Leica is offering in film cameras. One could offer the same in the form of SLR.

 

[wahiba]

The most logical choices are a manual 35mm and/or manual 120 with interchangeable lens. Forget SLR; they seem to be disappearing from the fancy digital models.

I do not know of a budget 35mm available with interchangeable lens but there are a couple of 120s from Lomo, Diana and Belair. Latter has an electronic shutter and pretty awful plastic lens. Diana has awful lens too and one shutter speed. However there is a glass lens for the Diana which is way better than the plastic lens. There is also a glass lens for the Belair but I have no experience of it.

Bottom line is an economic batch quantity. Some new techniques such as laser cutting instead of press tools for certain metal parts and 3D printing for certain plastic parts will reduce the batch size required. However, is there the market there while there are so many cameras vailable second hand that seem to last forever. I am 73 and while i have had to pension off my Rolliecord II I bought in 1965 the realisation that I had used that camera for over half its life and it had been made in 1937/38 is quite revealing. Recently I have acquired a couple of Olympus iS SLRs, fixed lens, auto focus etc. that produce good images and work well in both cases for less than £5!!!! Someone house clearing gave me a Pentax K1000 and my Yashica Fx-D and Rollie 35LED both bought new in the late 1970s still work (although LED on Rollie gave up years ago). I would suggest that there is at least 50 years worth of working second hand cameras out there. Artist still paint in oil paints as they have for hundreds of years and are well supplied so so long as there is a demand for film it will be produced and if there is a demand for cameras them too.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

The most logical choices are a manual 35mm and/or manual 120 with interchangeable lens. Forget SLR; they seem to be disappearing from the fancy digital models.

I do not know of a budget 35mm available with interchangeable lens but there are a couple of 120s from Lomo, Diana and Belair. Latter has an electronic shutter and pretty awful plastic lens. Diana has awful lens too and one shutter speed. However there is a glass lens for the Diana which is way better than the plastic lens. There is also a glass lens for the Belair but I have no experience of it.

Bottom line is an economic batch quantity. Some new techniques such as laser cutting instead of press tools for certain metal parts and 3D printing for certain plastic parts will reduce the batch size required. However, is there the market there while there are so many cameras vailable second hand that seem to last forever. I am 73 and while i have had to pension off my Rolliecord II I bought in 1965 the realisation that I had used that camera for over half its life and it had been made in 1937/38 is quite revealing. Recently I have acquired a couple of Olympus iS SLRs, fixed lens, auto focus etc. that produce good images and work well in both cases for less than £5!!!! Someone house clearing gave me a Pentax K1000 and my Yashica Fx-D and Rollie 35LED both bought new in the late 1970s still work (although LED on Rollie gave up years ago). I would suggest that there is at least 50 years worth of working second hand cameras out there. Artist still paint in oil paints as they have for hundreds of years and are well supplied so so long as there is a demand for film it will be produced and if there is a demand for cameras them too.

You mean make a new crap camera that sells for multiple of what used high quality one does?

 

[etn]

It would take a camera manufacturer to do it and not a start up.A successful camera sfhould be simple like what Leica is offering in film cameras. One could offer the same in the form of SLR.

I agree that in the 35mm world, having 2 bodies (one digital, one film) is probably the best solution. Re-use the lenses and change the body depending on your needs.
I know only 2 manufacturers offering that, Leica and Nikon F6. Not exactly cheap.
The F6 is not particularly new, does it even work with the latest Nikon glass?

 

[blockend]

Both projects was so obviously incredibly naive at the outset that they couldn’t be taken seriously.

The Japan Camera Hunter aim to create a new upmarket compact wasn't naive, it just proved to be impractical. Bellamy Hunt is well connected and the idea was a sound one. He sources classic cameras, including 90s/00s fancy compacts, the prices of which exceed the original in many cases, even when they are to all intents unrepairable. If any 35mm camera type warrants re-invention, it's the fancy compact. Nevertheless the industry had moved on, shutters are unobtainable, and the idea remains a fantasy.

It's worth remembering late model film cameras of all kinds represented decades of incremental advance, with all the industrial innovation and means of production Japan could throw at the problem. The idea someone with a 3-D printer can turn out a precision shutter is a non-starter. "New" classic 35mm cameras are available, if you buy one of the few models that still has expertise in their maintenance, like The Nikon F2 or Leica models.

 

[mshchem]

I suspect that in the near term Leica film cameras are what will be available new. I would be surprised if the film models make money for Leica. Of course just like a hundred years ago wood cameras are alive and well.

 

[mshchem]

Nikon F6 may be around for a while? ??

 

[Chan Tran]

I agree that in the 35mm world, having 2 bodies (one digital, one film) is probably the best solution. Re-use the lenses and change the body depending on your needs.
I know only 2 manufacturers offering that, Leica and Nikon F6. Not exactly cheap.
The F6 is not particularly new, does it even work with the latest Nikon glass?

But I heard Nikon has discontinued the F6. The F6 can not control the aperture of the type E lenses.

 

[Chan Tran]

I suspect that in the near term Leica film cameras are what will be available new. I would be surprised if the film models make money for Leica. Of course just like a hundred years ago wood cameras are alive and well.

I believe Leica makes sufficient profit on their film cameras to keep making them. There are sufficient number of people who use Leica M digital. And with those and extra body for film isn't a lot of money if one can afford a number of Leica lenses. Besides the Leica M film cameras and digital are very close to each other in term of controls.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

But I heard Nikon has discontinued the F6. The F6 can not control the aperture of the type E lenses.

Yes, it was discontinued. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Their last film camera before transitioning into digital.

 

[neilt3]

Nikon F6 may be around for a while? ??

But I heard Nikon has discontinued the F6. The F6 can not control the aperture of the type E lenses.

https://petapixel.com/2020/10/06/ni...ly,SB-300 flash, and a couple of older lenses.

If you want a new F6 , you better be quick before there all gone .
I think it's just Nikon Japan still listing them as they have the last ones left .
Clearly when the sell out this time their not doing another batch .

Or depending on what your smoking , maybe their getting ready to announce an F7 ?

 

[Arthurwg]

Electronic shutters have replaced the old Copal design.

Anything "electronic" has a limited lifespan and can't be repaired. Just look at the 200 series Hasselblad.

Yep, but Cosina needs to find a source for electronic shutters, not sure if anyone makes shutters to order.

China could make shutters to order. They can make anything.

 

[4season]

I think anyone who desperately wants a brand-new high-grade 35mm camera should find a way to afford a Nikon F6 while they are still available, because I doubt you will find a better deal in this lifetime.

There is precedent of Nikon reissuing sophisticated cameras which had been long discontinued, in the form of the S2 and SP rangefinder cameras. They needed to resort to rubberized silk rather than titanium for the shutters, and apparently had to bring some workers out of retirement. These were beautiful and costly things, and it seems they lost money on each one. But this was when Nikon had more money to venture on such pet projects!

But if even $1800 for a refurbished F6 body is too much, maybe it's time to make friends with Russian sellers with stocks of NOS Zenit KM+ SLRs! Not nearly as refined as a Canon Rebel, but they are real, and you can own one for about 150 USD. The KMZ factory was still supplying KM Pluses, 122Ks and 412s, and performing QC as late as Nov 2017 and possibly later.

 

[Arthurwg]

https://petapixel.com/2020/10/06/nikon-has-finally-discontinued-the-f6-its-last-film-slr-report/#:~:text=After 16 years in production, Nikon has reportedly,SB-300 flash, and a couple of older lenses.

If you want a new F6 , you better be quick before there all gone .
I think it's just Nikon Japan still listing them as they have the last ones left .
Clearly when the sell out this time their not doing another batch .

Or depending on what your smoking , maybe their getting ready to announce an F7 ?

Lots of used F6s for sale. Save a great deal of money.

 

[Paul Howell]

Is Shanghai General Camera Company still a going concern? At one point they made bodies in K and Minolta MD mount.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

You might be able to find a new (or never really used) Nikon S3 (year 2000) or SP (year 2005) with the superb 50mm f/1.4 lens. If I did not already have a Leica M2, one of these would be very tempting.

 

[4season]

China could make shutters to order. They can make anything.

I think even Copal could if you paid them enough money in advance. But I wonder what sort of minimum order it would take to entice them: 100,000 pieces perhaps? Perhaps there's someone out there who has too much money and is willing to lose a few million of it in a camera-making venture?

 

[George Mann]

Technically neither is a challenge

It can be in a 35mm slr.

but who is going to pay for that kind
of unsustainable "convenience".

Unsustainable? If it were, no camera manufacturer would produce it.

 

[Chan Tran]

I think even Copal could if you paid them enough money in advance. But I wonder what sort of minimum order it would take to entice them: 100,000 pieces perhaps? Perhaps there's someone out there who has too much money and is willing to lose a few million of it in a camera-making venture?

They are still making the shutters for DSLR's.

 

[etn]

But I heard Nikon has discontinued the F6. The F6 can not control the aperture of the type E lenses.

The F6 is still listed on their webpage, https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/filmcamera/slr/f6/
There were many rumors of F6 discontinuation in the last 15 years, sooner or later they will end up being true. Sadly.
Nikon could obviously release an F7, for instance re-using most of the F6 platform but with updated electronics. Given Nikon's financial situation, it seems highly unlikely, but we can dream

Gone are the days when they re-tooled an entire production line for a one-time run of a few 1000 pcs, rangefinders at that:
https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/history-s3/index.htm
https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/history-sp/index.htm

EDIT: I saw after posting the above that the S3 and SP were mentioned in many posts I hadn't seen yet when posting. Apologies for the repeat of information already given by other members.

 

[Huss]

I backed the Reflex 35mm slr project on Kickstarter.
It was a really interesting concept.

That's my money down the drain!