Talk Of New Film Cameras

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Whether or not we are actually likely to see a new film camera, I believe that the time is ripe for manufacturers to seriously consider introducing one to the marketplace.

That being said, I have given a lot of thought into what would make one a success in the marketplace. I am primarily a Nikon user, so I will concentrate my findings on a new Nikon SLR model.

First, it should be reasonably small and light, as well as relatively affordable, with emphasis on reliability, usability, and durable build quality.

Second, it should be simple and fully compatible with the whole range of manual Nikkor lenses (folding Ai tab, closed loop metering), with the possibility of a hybrid electronically aided manual/af focusing screen.

The features I personally value the most are a stepless electronic shutter (usable with all manual focus lenses), exposure lock, and both center-weighted and spot metering, all of which I find essential for shooting slide film.

Paul Manuell · Oct 31, 2020

I want a 67 format Pentax 645 but that's never gonna happen

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprised of changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability (if possible).

But the light tight part would be quite an engineering feat!

Pieter12 · Oct 31, 2020

George Mann said:
Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprising changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability.

That would be the Rolleiflex Hy6, still in production except for the digital back.

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Furthermore, it would be acceptable, but even less likely to also entertain the possibility of a new rangefinder system as well, not discounting the outlay in production cost for a new lense system.

What is more likely however is a new point & shoot of sufficient quality and features. But it would need enough manual control, a high enough shutter speed, and a big, bright, clear viewfinder to be truly successful.

I would also like to see this new point & shoot incorporate a reliable stepped multi focal length lens of fixed prime lens quality like they offered in a few of their past models.

Donald Qualls · Oct 31, 2020

Given that it's cheaper to design and build microchip electronics today than mechanical devices (even fairly simple ones), I think it's unlikely we'll get what I really want -- a battery-independent 645 SLR -- but what I'd seriously attempt to save for is a fully manual (at least as option) camera that can use lenses that already exist, and that will operate in at least on manual mode (say, fixed shutter, manual aperture and focus, since that's the most likely one to be practical to build) with a dead battery. Let's say it's a variation on a Nikon F mount -- I actually have a few F-mount AI or AI-S (I'm actually unsure of the difference; not a Nikon guy) lenses around (for blasphemous devices that I didn't buy and have used only long enough to be assured that level of automation was not for me) -- but it could just as easily be for any system that offered open-aperture metering (or even stop-down; I've got a good set of M42 lenses).

Honestly, I don't even care whether it's 35mm or medium format -- i shoot both (though I generally prefer larger film over smaller). Large format seems fairly well covered with current or recently produced cameras in the field and view categories, though a new press camera (a sub for a Speed Graphic, including a built-in shutter for use with shutterless lenses) would be a very welcome option as well. The latter seems very unlikely, however; 35mm, at least, seems possible.

Paul Howell · Oct 31, 2020

George Mann said:
Whether or not we are actually likely to see a new film camera, I believe that the time is ripe for manufacturers to seriously consider introducing one to the marketplace.

That being said, I have given a lot of thought into what would make one a success in the marketplace. I am primarily a Nikon user, so I will concentrate my findings on a new Nikon SLR model.

First, it should be reasonably small and light, as well as relatively affordable, with emphasis on reliability, usability, and durable build quality.

Second, it should be simple and fully compatible with the whole range of manual Nikkor lenses (folding Ai tab, closed loop metering), with the possibility of a hybrid electronically aided manual/af focusing screen.

The features I personally value the most are a stepless electronic shutter (usable with all manual focus lenses), exposure lock, and both center-weighted and spot metering, all of which I find essential for shooting slide film.

Other than backward compatible to non lens and E lens it's called the F6. An update would be a film version of the Df.

Nikon in the past has tooled up to make anniversary or collectors cameras like the S2 or was it S3. Konica was pretty much out of the market and came up the Hextar M, so it is possible if their marketing department sees a market it could happen. Best bet, MF, update of the K1000.

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Paul Howell said:
Other than backward compatible to non lens and E lens it's called the F6. An update would be a film version of the Df.

These camera's are too expensive and complex. What the market demands is a relatively simple and affordable camera.

Paul Howell said:
Best bet, MF, update of the K1000.

Yes, I agree.

Paul Howell · Oct 31, 2020

What we don't know is if any manufacturer kept their old tools and dies. Toward the last there was Phoenix, made an inexpensive K mount, I think it had a electronic shutter, in China someone made a K mount for Vivitar and Promaster, simple cameras, build quality was not all that good, then Sigma made a couple of AF bodies the SA7 and 9.

Sirius Glass · Oct 31, 2020

A new all mechanical single lens reflex 120 film with a 6x6 negative that is complete compatible with Hasselblad's Series V system with lens mounted shutters.

wiltw · Oct 31, 2020

George Mann said:
Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprised of changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability (if possible).

But the light tight part would be quite an engineering feat!

Nikon, Canon and Olympus all offered SLRs with removeable film backs, which could be swapped for a 250ex motorized film back...it would have been relatively easy to design a digital sensor back for those cameras, but it never happened.

Kodachromeguy · Oct 31, 2020

wiltw said:
..it would have been relatively easy to design a digital sensor back for those cameras, but it never happened.

No it would not have been easy to design digital backs because of many mechanical issues such as triggering the CMOS sensor when the shutter fires and placement of the sensor in the film gate. Leica tried it with the R8 and R9 cameras, and the resulting package was complex and expensive. If it had been "easy," the big players would have done it.

wyofilm · Oct 31, 2020

Cosina built Nikon FM10. Practical, not sexy.

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
No it would not have been easy to design digital backs because of many mechanical issues such as triggering the CMOS sensor when the shutter fires and placement of the sensor in the film gate. Leica tried it with the R8 and R9 cameras, and the resulting package was complex and expensive. If it had been "easy," the big players would have done it.

Actually, the problems can be overcome by building the necessary components into the camera body (a small control board + a few sensors and contacts).

They didn't do it because the cameras were designed and built before the digital backs.

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

wyofilm said:
Cosina built Nikon FM10. Practical, not sexy.

Indeed. But I could suggest a few simple improvements affecting its durability and reliability.

Paul Howell · Oct 31, 2020

It's my understanding that Cosina can longer get shutters.

Auer · Oct 31, 2020

Paul Howell said:
It's my understanding that Cosina can longer get shutters.

Shame, a fresh run of the absolutely fun Cosina Voigtländers would be great

George Mann · Oct 31, 2020

Electronic shutters have replaced the old Copal design.

Paul Howell · Oct 31, 2020

Yep, but Cosina needs to find a source for electronic shutters, not sure if anyone makes shutters to order.

Oren Grad · Nov 1, 2020

Nidec Copal still supplies electronically-controlled focal plane shutters:

https://www.nidec.com/en/nidec-copa...107/M106/S105/NCPL-Shutter-for-digitalcamera/

As always, it will be a question of whether the unit cost for this component will be viable given the projected sales price and volume of whatever product you want to put it into.

Helge · Nov 1, 2020

As I’ve written on here before: A leaf shutter would be rather simple to make with an actuator per blade.
What often goes out and requires the most stringent manufacturing with leaf shutters is the ring that synchronizes and moves all the blades.

It’s like the crankshaft in a car, high wear and high precision.
The clockwork timing is just as bad in the old completely mechanical shutters.

All that could be completely disregarded with modern small and cheap actuators.

Focal plane shutters could be replaced with a film plane LCD shutter with a slow “crude” “protective” shutter in front.
You’d lose up to a stop in absolute speed from the polarizers, but would gain the ability to selectively locally expose the frame using an matrix LCD.
The speed could be regained by sliding or tipping the LCD shutter away and let the slow shutter take duty in low light, slow situations.

What would make sense right now would be a simple 645 or 66 medium format camera, with a clamp on the back to use a phone (or any dedicated future device) for metering, rangefinder and preview.

The smaller medium format camera has a lot going for it.
Lenses can be cheaper for the same quality (a simple Tessar type will give you ca. 135 Double Gauss quality in because of the size of the projection).
Speed of the lenses is better than larger medium format.
Film economy is pretty good, which is especially important for newcomers.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 1, 2020

George Mann said:
Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprised of changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability (if possible).

But the light tight part would be quite an engineering feat!

Leica R8 digital module, nothing that's not been done, nothing special either.

I say stop the madness first.

GRHazelton · Nov 1, 2020

George Mann said:
Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprised of changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability (if possible).

But the light tight part would be quite an engineering feat!

IIRC the Zeiss Ikon Contarex offered interchangeable film back, but at a considerable cost.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 1, 2020

GRHazelton said:
IIRC the Zeiss Ikon Contarex offered interchangeable film back, but at a considerable cost.

Contaflex was in same arrangement. I have 3 backs for my Contaflex. Not sure what backs cost when new, but they don't look much different from Contarex ones, even though main camera was a totally different price point. Cheap these days as nobody seems to care about them anymore.

I mentioned Leica R8/9 DRM because that is a working digital / film swap, even though crazy expensive and outdated before it even hit stores. Technically neither is a challenge, but who is going to pay for that kind of unsustainable "convenience".

etn · Nov 1, 2020

George Mann said:
Another thing that I would do is to offer a hybrid digital/film system comprised of changeable backs, one housing the digital module, and the other securely holding a roll of film (light tight) for instant swapability (if possible).

But the light tight part would be quite an engineering feat!

Already exists:

Granted, the V-series Hasselblad is not available new. It would be great if Hasselblad would restart production of those (I doubt it will ever happen, though.)

As a side note, that CFV 50c ii back is truly fantastic and shines with the Hasselblad. Old glass (here a 60 CF) works very well.
Sure, we could argue that the sensor is small for medium format ("only" 33x44 mm), but anything larger (e.g. Sony's larger 44x56mm sensor) would be too expensive for us mere mortals, even €6k which this one costs is a stretch for many (myself included.)

I find this is the "ultimate" film/digital combo: take pictures on film and use the digital back to scan them.
Here an example from my last vacation in September. Shot on Provia 400X and scanned with the CFV back and the 135mm macro planar.

Talk Of New Film Cameras

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