Talk me out of a Rollei 6000 series camera

[Garb]

I have a Rolleiflex 6008 and I like it but the size/weight and rarity of parts is making me consider dropping down to 645 and using a Pentax 645. The problem I have right now is that I want a long AF lens for portraits, but the 150mm and 180mm are quite difficult to procure. I have the 60-140mm AF Variogon and maybe it'll work for portraits, but it is the biggest and heaviest lens I own, not very practical.

 

[Pieter12]

Only the 6008AF and the Hy6 will work with AF lenses in AF mode.

 

[Garb]

To clarify, I have the 6008AF, and it does work with AF lenses. AF isn't great though, not nearly as fast as a Canon EOS from the same era, and it misses a lot. Sometimes you have to try multiple times before it gets it right. I am told the Hy6 Mod 2 is better but don't own one and the film magazines for the Hy6 are difficult to procure so I'm not considering Hy 6. Another reason to consider the Pentax 645 N2, hopefully that focuses better.

That being said, the 180mm AFD lenses (for Hy6) are much easier to procure than the 180mm AF lens for 6008AF.

 

[locutus]

I think the first question would be, what format do you print in? If you print mostly squares, the P645 is obviously a down grade.

If you crop to 4:3 prints anyway, then yes the P645 might make sense.

Given Pentax' more extensive AF system experience i would expect that the AF on the 645 N2 is much better then the Rollei.

As for the 180mm, i have the manual focus version on a 6008 Integral, and its a surprisingly easy to focus lens. The focus ring has a very smooth and fast rotation speed, and i'd imagine that together with the 6008 AF focus confirmation for portraits it would be easy.

I use it for shooting concerts in manual focus and its fine.

 

[Pieter12]

I think the first question would be, what format do you print in? If you print mostly squares, the P645 is obviously a down grade.

If you crop to 4:3 prints anyway, then yes the P645 might make sense.

Given Pentax' more extensive AF system experience i would expect that the AF on the 645 N2 is much better then the Rollei.

As for the 180mm, i have the manual focus version on a 6008 Integral, and its a surprisingly easy to focus lens. The focus ring has a very smooth and fast rotation speed, and i'd imagine that together with the 6008 AF focus confirmation for portraits it would be easy.

I use it for shooting concerts in manual focus and its fine.

The Rollei (Schneider) 180 is a heavy lens--1525g-- that I would not recommend for hand-held photos unless you are using a strobe. The combined weight of the camera, battery, a prism and lens is well over 3kg, probably closer to 4.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the tilting front of the SL66/66E , which makes it superior for close-ups and near/far landscapes.

Are you sure that the tilt function works for distance photographs? I recall reading it was for closeups only.

 

[locutus]

The Rollei (Schneider) 180 is a heavy lens--1525g-- that I would not recommend for hand-held photos unless you are using a strobe. The combined weight of the camera, battery, a prism and lens is well over 3kg, probably closer to 4.

Jup, its a heavy setup but it does work for me, and i'm quite content with the final prints. Have you used the combination?


My setup for shooting concerts is a 6008 Integral, 90 degree prism with 40/3.5, 80/2, 180/2.8, 3 backs and i'm absolutely loving it.

 

[Pieter12]

Jup, its a heavy setup but it does work for me, and i'm quite content with the final prints. Have you used the combination?


My setup for shooting concerts is a 6008 Integral, 90 degree prism with 40/3.5, 80/2, 180/2.8, 3 backs and i'm absolutely loving it.

You must have a strong back and fast film. I have used the 180 and a prism on both a 6008 and Hy6, but usually on a tripod. Hand-held is just not sharp enough for the 160 ISO I usually shoot. Maybe with strobes it would be OK.

 

[locutus]

You must have a strong back and fast film. I have used the 180 and a prism on both a 6008 and Hy6, but usually on a tripod. Hand-held is just not sharp enough for the 160 ISO I usually shoot. Maybe with strobes it would be OK.

Ilford Delta 3200, metered at 1600, developed at 3200 times in Microphen, suits my style:

 

[ic-racer]

I think Delta 3200 makes the 6000 series more useful. I have 3200 in one of my 6008 magazines right now.

 

[Pieter12]

Ilford Delta 3200, metered at 1600, developed at 3200 times in Microphen, suits my style:

Nice. What shutter speeds are you usually using? Wide open or close to it, I presume.

 

[JWMster]

I had a 6008. Loved the shutter. The rest was over priced on the basis of honest to goodness scarcity... and that's a real problem. The system is fairly high quality, but like the SL66 was an also ran against Hassy which became the standard. Accordingly, it didn't sell well as much as I can tell, so the pieces are hard to come by... and spendy. Do not underestimate what that means. If you're ready to open your wallet.... go for it.

Maybe this is where we are with analog..... the great looking wannabes and neverwere cameras STILL appear to have promise.... and fairly they do. Many have features long as your arm and are all shiny and minty looking. Temptation doesn't come ugly... usually. It's like working with a gelding no one wants: It might be great, but you're very much on your own. IC-Racer and some others are very very good at this. I wasn't. I think 6008 users are very much on their own in ways other system users just don't encounter. It's neat stuff, but help isn't around the corner either. And that didn't work for me at that time, but it might for you. It's wonderful gear.... but I decided to take my expectations down a bit and focus on availability and dependability. The best is the enemy of the good. There are lot of very, very good systems out there. I've never used a Hassy, but back in the day, it certainly filled the bill for many. The rest of the 6X6 SLR's were also rans... kind of like a Plymouth. Nothing wrong with a Plymouth and there's some beauty in a shiny object. Go for the Chevy.... it will get you there.... or someone can fix it on the way. I picked up a Pentax 645N recently....and it gets the job done sufficiently well.... I'm having to calm the GAS down before swinging after something foolish again. GAS happens. Resist it if you can.

 

[locutus]

Nice. What shutter speeds are you usually using? Wide open or close to it, I presume.

...It depends, i use the camera spot meter as the stages i work have fairly hot directional lights.

This usually allows me to sit at 2.8/60 or 125 with the 80mm, the 180mm gets used at larger stages which have somewhat brighter lights and i can usually do 1/250th.

It's good to remember that concerts are much brighter than you think when you consider that the points of interest (artists) are illuminated by stage lights, and the rest of the stage is 'no care'.

 

[GG12]

Forgive this rather lengthy reply, but want to cover a number of issues. I started with Rollei back some 30 years ago with a 60063 and 80/2.8 lens. Used it all the time, travelled with it. Had the advantage that the back was slim (no dark slide), handle could come off, and without the prism, it was only somewhat heavier than a TLR, but not quite the beast you might think. Workable. And the images were wonderful. Never a problem with it.

Over the years, got more lenses (many, many) and found some nicer, slightly off the radar ones to be optimal: really liked the 60mm Curtagon (build a system around that lens), the 150 Tele Xenar (much smaller than the 180), and the 250 Sonnar (much smaller than the 300 Apo, but as good at f11. Didn't care for some of the more exotics - the 55PC, the 90 is superb, but too big for my use, short DOF; the 110 superb, but again too heavy. The 180 is nice but also heavy, recommend the manual focus as the AF can go wonky and is not repairable (at least very very hard). The 40mm Schneider was great, a wee bit soft on the edges, but still superb. Not quite as good as tech camera lenses, but fast and small....

The 45º prism is a treat, often made the cut for traveling. Over time, upgraded to a 6008AF (didn't really care for it - trying too hard to be something it wasn't meant to be, and the batteries didn't last); ended up with Hy6 and digital back. Super combination, worked well for about 10 years with this. Focus confirmation with MF lenses was superb, no need for AF. Totally in the fold for a long long time.

So why no longer? A couple of reasons - the support from Germany worked well for many years, was fast and effective, but it got a bit spotty. And then there is the fact that the camera is designed to cover 6x6 with these large lenses (which are lovely, BTW), but the form factor was just too awkward for travel. If the Hy6 handle would come off, would be much better. It just seemed the world moved on to smaller, more integrated, less fussy. Wanted to get a more modern digital back on the camera (for higher ISO), not possible then. (There is a guy in China working on this). Didn't like the closed system getting harder to service ( an understatement....). But every day still miss the Rollei. It could do anything.

Recommendations: the 6003/8 are superb. Keep an eye on the lens package - smaller is better. There are exotics, and they are neat, but the weight gets up there fast. Stay with MF if possible, more rugged. AF lenses will need attention at some time, and parts are harder. The 80 2.8 is an exception. Still, the 60mm Curtagon is exceptional, luckily found as good in the Schneider 60mm XL for tech cameras.
Hope this is helpful.

 

[Pieter12]

the 60mm Curtagon is exceptional

And quite hard to find. I still love my 6008/Hy6 cameras, wish the factory support was better or that there were more parts and technicians available. I'll keep shooting with them until the wheels fall off.

 

[ic-racer]

... slightly off the radar ones to be optimal: really liked the 60mm Curtagon (build a system around that lens), the 150 Tele Xenar (much smaller than the 180), and the 250 Sonnar (much smaller than the 300 Apo, but as good at f11. Didn't care for some of the more exotics - the 55PC, the 90 is superb, but too big for my use, short DOF; the 110 superb, but again too heavy. The 180 is nice but also heavy, recommend the manual focus as the AF can go wonky and is not repairable (at least very very hard). The 40mm Schneider was great, a wee bit soft on the edges, but still superb. Not quite as good as tech camera lenses, but fast and small....
..

Nice lenses! I have used SLX since the early 1980s but only ever (and still) just own a few basic lenses.

 

[Pieter12]

the 90 is superb, but too big for my use, short DOF

The 90 may be larger than the 80, but there is no need for a lens hood. And it is sharper, too.

 

[GG12]

The 90 may be larger than the 80, but there is no need for a lens hood. And it is sharper, too.

Eric Hiss (Rollei USA) loved the 90. Thought it super sharp. Somehow for "out and about" didn't work so well for me, but it is a great lens.

 

[Anaxagore]

The 90 may be a bit large, but it is very light, and is perfect to take for a photo walk during which objects far and close will be shot.
The factory recently repaired my 180afd, 150afd (both had some AF gears that failed), and 80/2 (faulty shutter leaves iirc). It took a while but they did it well.

 

[locutus]

Ah, good to hear. I just sent them a Super Angulon 50/2.8 earlier this week for a shutter replacement.

 

[MsLing]

I have the 60-140mm AF Variogon

Wow, could you please comment on this lens? Like resolution, color, CA and other things. Hard as I tried, few descriptions I found. Who own and use this glass seems rare.

 

[Garb]

Wow, could you please comment on this lens? Like resolution, color, CA and other things. Hard as I tried, few descriptions I found. Who own and use this glass seems rare.

I think my answer will be very disappointing to you. I took out the lens (AF Variogon) for a walk to get accustomed to it and it was uncomfortably large and heavy. I'm not a tripod shooter. Hand-holding it is an ordeal. I'm not really a pixel peeper so I can't comment on resolution, and I'm not very particular about color either. The choice of this lens was largely functional (one of the only long focal lengths for 6x6 portraits with auto-focus) but before I really got a chance to use it for that, I got my hands on an AF 180mm Tele-Xenar, which is significantly lighter and smaller, so I've been using that instead while my Variogon sits in my camera cabinet.

However, if reviews of this lens are as rare as you say that are, maybe I can try to write up a review one day, but I'm so far behind on everything in my life. I have a stack of film from two years ago I haven't scanned yet. I don't know when I'd be able to get to it.

You must have a strong back and fast film. I have used the 180 and a prism on both a 6008 and Hy6, but usually on a tripod. Hand-held is just not sharp enough for the 160 ISO I usually shoot. Maybe with strobes it would be OK.

I have been using the AF 180mm on a 6008 AF with the 45 degrees prism, and a flash in the hot shoe, for most of a day. It's doable, I would say even with 160 ISO, as long as lighting is favorable (I use the flash mainly so the subject knows the photo was taken, so it's not being used to manage the shutter speed, I usually meter for ambient light and shoot on bright cloudy days or sunny days in the shade). And I'm not a particularly strong person. I use a neck strap so I'm not using my arms to hold it when I'm not shooting, and I also use the grip that slots into the side (I have the pistol grip as well but haven't used it with the 180mm).

If you use the waist-level finder, you can hold the camera against your chest, that makes it much easier to hand-hold, plus it's lighter.

 

[JWMster]

Did the OP buy a 6000 series?

FWIW, I had one. I would concur that the weight of this system, the size, etc. is larger than practical. I frequently shoot an RB67 these days.... which is equally large, impractical, etc. but fully manual and for what I'm asking out of a film 6X7 great. Mamiya stuff is everywhere. For a 6X6 and this 6000 series, the scarcity of cameras, lenses and service makes the system something of an isolated set of problems as an owner. You can solve these, or you can turn the page and find larger eco systems.

IMHO and experience, it was ultimately the scarcity -> cost -> unreliability of the system that drove me away. It was an expensive lesson - not the last lesson of it's type I've learned, but a lesson all the same. Rollei TLR's are built like tanks and just work. Nikon F's ditto. Leica M's are often priced like tiny jewels, but they can work very well, too, if you like bottom loaders (I don't) and RF's... which is a less common choice. Mamiyas seem to be tanks, too.... maybe monster tanks.

At the end of the day, it's whatever floats your boat: If photography is about taking pictures, get a tank and shoot it until the thing breaks. Likely you'll break before the tank does. But if photography is about the gear - and frankly that can often be part of the joys for many in this hobby.... the technical challenge and thrill of working cool antique machines even in full manual to produce technically great handmade prints, then the 6000 series could be a fun ride.... and kind of like Houdini's ride over Niagra Falls in a barrell, the question can be whether you'll stay in it, or get out of it alive with a smile and some photos that.... well, you could have made with an iPhone.... just might not be a relevant part of the discussion.

Surely a few of us are amazing photographers dedicated to photos under any and all conditions - whatever it takes (sadly I'm anything but amazing), but likely more of us produce technically fine photos that won't become landmarks but might give us a thrill to produce and please a few. I think much of the experience in film photography in particular is for the control, the joy of the process, the challenge, the working with rare materials, working with now increasingly rare equipment and not about practicality per se of making a given image in the strictly easiest way. Don't let anyone else make your decision here.... be sure to choose this route because you want all of this in this way. Yes, you can get it with another camera... and that may happen, but for now, maybe this is an itch you have to scratch no matter what. Start small.

 

[beemermark]

So I'm a long time (and I mean decades) Rollei TLR fan. I've owned dozens and currently have a 3.5E(?), 2.8F, and a Rollei Tele. I've been drooling over the Rollei Wide for sale in the want ads but I just can't justify the price. The Rollei 6000 sereis seem pretty cheap right now. and the 50mm Distagon is reasonable.

Same boat as you and a few (more than 5) I bought a Keiv 6C and 50/4 Carl Zeiss Flektogon lens. Fantastic lens (same as the Hasseblad?) and the camera has been utterly reliable. Then last year I bought a Bronica SQ-ai with 50mm lens and had the whole outfit overhauled for about $350. Been a great outfit also. I had a 500C once upon a time and just could not justify the prices for the wide angle lenses.

 

[Pieter12]

I have owned and been shooting Rollei SLRs for about 10 years now, and the 6008 is bulletproof, never had a problem. The form factor and weight (mostly the battery) is not that much greater than a Hasselblad if you use it with a WLF and no handle. A bit more vertical, but the film back doesn't protrude as much. Plus it has an integrated motor drive and instant-return mirror. Once the original NiCad batteries have been rebuilt with NiMH cells, they work fine, too. The Zeiss lenses are excellent, the Schneiders maybe even better. Film inserts are inexpensive compared to Hasselblad and there is no silliness about matching numbers that some Hasselblad users seem to think important. The film path is less convoluted, too. As far as repairability, there are at least a couple of technicians still working on them, and I haven't heard of major parts shortages. But mine (3) have never needed service. Lens shutters might be a different situation, but once again, I've not needed that service. The Hy6 is another story, though. The manufacturer has been in and out of business, parts are scarce or even impossible to find, I only know of the factory and Key Camera that will work on them. Still, I have 2 bodies and they both work fine. The 6060 film backs have been a problem for me but I do have one that I can rely on all the time. Plus, even though the digital backs are rare as hen's teeth and not up to the most current standards. the Leaf AFi II 7 I have renders color magnificently and has been quite reliable.