Taking a dip in large format

[amellice]

Hello everyone. I want to get a large format camera (I mainly shoot landscapes). I did some research and looks like Shen Hao HZX45-IIA would be a good choice (please feel free to suggest others). I'm on a budget of 1000~1300 USD. I'm looking for the camera and wide angle lens, (maybe a telephoto too). So what are your suggestions for lenses, film holders, ground glass, .... etc?

Also I'd be developing these myself so any recommendation for 4x5 development tanks would be great (I guess these won't fit in the budget)

Thanks

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have that camera, it is quite versatile and is in my own opinion, a value for money all round camera. I've had mine for around 10 years and have finally found the lenses that I am happy with for field work doing general landscape, portraiture and within reason, architectural photography.

I would suggest a three lens kit of 90mm with reasonable coverage. For many years I used a Schneider Angulon 90mm, but it just covers the 4x5" format, which meant I had very little movements.

Recently I picked up a fujinon 90mm SW (Super Wide) with 100 degrees coverage giving me an image circle of 216mm and uses a 67mm filter ring. I use this lens with a bag bellows. A bag bellows is not an absolute requirement, but I found I was stretching the standard bellows way too much so I now always use the bag bellows when using this 90mm lens. The Shen Hao bag bellows for this model camera are quite cheap and fold flat for carrying.

I have the Fujinon f/6.3 150 W (I think it is a W) it is quite an old lens and runs a seiko shutter, vast amount of coverage and is often my go to lens, also runs a 67mm filter ring. This lens is really handy as it can be reversed and will stay in the camera when folded down. This lens has been inside the camera since the day I bought it. Very handy for a single lens super minimal equipment day.

For longer stuff I finally found a Fujinon 250mm cannot remember the f stop (I'm travelling) but I think it is f/6.7. This lens also takes a 67mm filter ring.

With these three focal lenghts, I can photograph pretty much all of what I wish to shoot, sometimes I wish for wider or longer, but by and large this is what I take with me when I am using the minimal amount of kit.

There are more focal lenghts that can and will be nice to have, but that is what I think makes for a reasonable and versatile lens kit for that camera.

For developing, I have used jobo rotary processing for close to 30 years now, however last year I picked up the SP-445 film developing tank for 4x5" film. I think it is excellent and reasonably priced and since I received the SP-445 tank, I have used this to develop all of my 4x5" film.

Almost any film holders should work for you, just get what is available to you.

Some thoughts.

Mick.

Correction, the 150 lens I described above, does not run a 67 mm filter ring, it is considerably smaller. I seem to remember it is about 46mm or 49mm, whichever it is, I use a step-up ring to 52mm and use my Nikon 52mm filters. The lens stays in the camera when folded with the step-up ring.

Mick.

 

[Alan9940]

Wow, this is a very wide topic... Do some searches on this board and over on LFPF; plenty of advice has been given. You don't mention if you'd prefer to buy new or used? If new, the Chamonix 45N-2 is pretty popular among the LF crowd. If used, many camera options open up to you. Lens choice IMO is very personal. How wide is wide for you? I use down to 75mm, but some folks wouldn't consider that focal length very wide. I've never owned a telephoto lens for 4x5, but the Fuji L 400mm certainly gets high praise. For developing, the least expensive way to start is with trays, then move to other options if you feel the need.

 

[Two23]

The Shen Hao is a nice camera for outdoor work. I had one for years. As for lenses, you need to think this through. I suggest a 90mm plus a 150mm to start.


Kent in SD

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Is your budget of $1000-1300 for the camera alone? What is your budget for lenses? What format cameras have you been shooting? What subjects and what focal length lenses do you like with those?

 

[Peter Schrager]

Won't go wrong with shen hao...one lens
4 trays to develop...you can make contact prints with a lightbulb

 

[Mick Fagan]

As an addition, I also have a Fujinon 65 SWD lens for this camera, very little movement but it is excellent for close work where you need very wide coverage. This is an extreme lens for this camera and not something I would suggest. This lens certainly takes 67mm filters. I have a graduated centre filter for this lens. I use this lens more than I expected I would.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have a Komura 400mm telephoto, which is about the heaviest lens this camera can easily take. This also is an extreme lens for this camera. I use it rarely

Mick.

 

[removed account4]

looks like a fantastic camera and set up from what i have heard.
camera carefully made and rave reviews. don't forget all the other stuff
one needs ( aside from being humbled at all the goofy mistakes one can take ) when
they use large format. beefy tripod ( not sure what mount size you need but a black beefy tiltall works
great with my speed graphic and also with the graphic view II i used so who knows probably ok with your hopeful camera )
then non-leaky film holders ( get some book binder tape from talus bookbinding supply in nyc, you can repair film holder hinges with that
stuff and it is perfect ), you can use anything from a jacket to big tee shirt to a 3$ rectangle of cloth from a fabric store for a dark cloth,
and lenses ... there are some real sleepers out there that people overlook, some better than others, and they won't break the bank.
( don't forget to buy a few lensboards for your lenses ) and ... a shutter release .... drug store reading glasses can double as a "read the ground glass to see if
the camera is in focus " sort of thing instead of buying a 50$ loupe.
have fun!

 

[esearing]

Used Shen-hao, Ikeda Anba, and even Tachihara cameras are all sub $1000 and about the same weight and functionality. They all have one thing in common - tiny knobs. If you have big hands or like to work in the cold wearing gloves they can be a challenge. Chamonix has 3 models of 4x5 with larger knobs and slightly more bellows in your price range. And don't forget your other costs: Sturdy tripod+head, backpack, focus cloth/hood, holders, loupe, lenses and boards, filters, spot meter, shutter tester, film, development tank(s), chemistry, scanner/enlarger, paper(s) , darkroom trays/graduates/accessories, timers, etc. 135mm f4.5 is probably my most used lens.

 

[Larry the sailor]

Developing 4X5 can be as simple as open trays as mentioned or one of the readily available systems currently on the market. I use the MOD54 in a Paterson 3 reel tank.
Another option is the SP445. I've never used on but it gets praised here and on LFPF.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello everyone. I want to get a large format camera (I mainly shoot landscapes). I did some research and looks like Shen Hao HZX45-IIA would be a good choice (please feel free to suggest others). I'm on a budget of 1000~1300 USD. I'm looking for the camera and wide angle lens, (maybe a telephoto too). So what are your suggestions for lenses, film holders, ground glass, .... etc?

Also I'd be developing these myself so any recommendation for 4x5 development tanks would be great (I guess these won't fit in the budget)

Thanks

I had good success with the Jobotank and reels to develop 4x5 negatives

 

[amellice]

Thanks all for your input and feedback. To give more background about what I'm looking for, I'm not looking specifically for new camera, used one is fine by me if it's in good condition. The 1000$ to 1300$ range is for a camera body and a lens or 2. As I mentioned I do landscape and I'd say wide is about 90mm (cause I understand this is like 30mm in 35 format) and another telephoto lens one would be good. I do have tripod+head, backpack, filters, spot meter, shutter release.

So I think beside the body and the lens(es) I'd need a focus cloth/hood, holders, loupe. I did little bit of research and the lenses is somehow confusing to me specially with different manufactures and serial numbers.

I took a look at B&H used large format cameras and found Wisner 4x5 traditional, Wista 45DX, and Zone VI ultra light field camera. I usually get my film gear from eBay or from apug sellers. So please feel free to comment on those cameras, any lenses (wide and telephoto), holders seem very expensive new (100$ for 2!!!) so where do you guys get yours from.

Thanks again for your answers

 

[bdial]

I've always bought used holders, 4x5 holders in good usable shape are easy to find, and inexpensive compared to the rest of the kit. There are decades worth of available stock, so not a lot of reason to buy new, unless you feel you must have something completely fresh.

210 is probably my favorite focal length for 4x5, which is a good bit longer than what might be considered "normal". But it gives you a nice image size and a convenient working distance if you're working close, either for portraits or detail shots of nature or architecture. For a long time, my LF lens kit was a 90 and a 210.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE lens focal length: If you're comparing 4x5 inch to 135 format, you first need to decide if you crop 135 to fit 8x10 print format, or 4x5 film to 6.7x10 print format. The ratios of 4x5 and 135 differ. If you crop 135 format to 8x10 prints then a 'normal' lens for 135 format is 38mm. 'Normal' lens focal length for uncropped 4x5 film is 153mm. To determine the approximate focal length lens on 135 film with the same 'look' of a 90mm lens on 4x5...

90/153=.588
38x.588=22.3mm

So, if you crop 135 format to 8x10 print size then a 22mm lens on 135 format will have a similar look as a 90mm lens on 4x5 film. If you want a 4x5 lens with a similar look to a 30mm lens on 135 format (printed 8x10) then that would be a 120mm lens.

 

[Christopher Dewey]

Take a look at Intrepid 4x5 camera, too. It makes some compromises, but at about $325 new, it would get you in well under your budget. I've had good luck getting lenses from Ebay, including like-new lenses from Japan. Expect to pay around $100-200 for "modern" multicoated lenses in the 135-180mm range, and a bit more for 90mm or 210mm. Fujinon seems to be good value for modern lenses.

Buying film holders on Ebay is a bit of a crapshoot, in my experience; I've gotten some good ones, and some real dogs. But you probably only need 3-6 good ones... if you buy a dozen for $10 apiece, there's a good chance you'll be all set. Or bite the bullet, and buy new with the money you save on camera and lenses.

Don't spend a lot of money on a loupe, at least not right away; cheap reading glasses might do the trick. Or, if you're extremely nearsighted like me, you may not need one. A dark jacket or t-shirt should work well as a dark cloth; again don't spend a lot of money on this item right away.

 

[Alan Gales]

RE lens focal length: If you're comparing 4x5 inch to 135 format, you first need to decide if you crop 135 to fit 8x10 print format, or 4x5 film to 6.7x10 print format. The ratios of 4x5 and 135 differ. If you crop 135 format to 8x10 prints then a 'normal' lens for 135 format is 38mm. 'Normal' lens focal length for uncropped 4x5 film is 153mm. To determine the approximate focal length lens on 135 film with the same 'look' of a 90mm lens on 4x5...

90/153=.588
38x.588=22.3mm

So, if you crop 135 format to 8x10 print size then a 22mm lens on 135 format will have a similar look as a 90mm lens on 4x5 film. If you want a 4x5 lens with a similar look to a 30mm lens on 135 format (printed 8x10) then that would be a 120mm lens.

+1

When I first started with a 4x5 I bought a 75mm lens thinking it would be like the 25mm that I loved using in 35mm. It felt too wide so I sold it and bought a 90mm which felt right.

For some reason I prefer closer to normal focal lengths now with large format so I've since replaced the 90 with a 121mm lens. I've got a 121mm, 180mm, 250mm set-up for 4x5 and the same 250mm plus 14" (360mm) and 19" (480mm) set-up for 8x10. It works out well for me.

 

[Huub]

I am with Mick Fagan here. Get yourself a nice 90mm, a 150mm and something in the range of 210 - 250mm. Almost any nice modern Nikon, Schneider, Fuji or Rodenstock will do. We can discuss a lot about the differences between focal lengths and how 35mm and 4x5 compare to each other, but there is only one way to find out what works for you. Personally i work wit a 75mm - 105mm - 150mm - 240mm set, build up during years of shooting and reconsidering the contents of my camera bag. The good thing is that the price of lenses seems to be about stable, so you can sell for about the same price as you buy them for, so it is a pretty low risk game. And lenses are compartively cheap i find.

And that ShenHao is a very nice and very beautiful camera!

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

There's nothing wrong with the classic 90/150/210 lens selection. BUT... none of those focal lengths correspond to an equivalent FL of 30mm on 135 format film (reference post #12). If the OP wants to 'center' his lens selection around his favorite (30mm on 135 format) focal length then he'll build his 4x5 lens kit around a 120mm lens. This assumes he crops 135 format to 8x10 prints.

Let's assume the OP wants a 1.5x difference between focal lengths. He can then build a lens kit... 120, 180, 270, 400... and at the wider end... 72-80mm... and wider still at 58-65mm.

 

[amellice]

Thanks @Huub and @Old-N-Feeble. I'm not really concerning myself with comparing to what I've in the 35mm format. I embraced the difference already when I got my Mamiya RZ couple of years ago. I'm pretty much settled down on the HZX45-IIA. However doing some search on what all you guys said here and LFP I came across these lenses that I think will be good for start. The Nikon 90mm Nikkor SW f/8 and Schneider Super Symmar 120mm f/5.6 but I couldn't find the first one in good decent condition with good price and the second one does exist but expensive. Also since I love close landscape I usually have a telephoto and looks like the Nikon 300mm f9 Nikkor M is a good choice but it's in the 500~600$, is that about the right range?

 

[Huub]

On the well known auction site there are plenty of nikon 90mm available, starting around 300 USD. Quite a few sellers from Japan have a very good reputation and personally i never experienced a problem buying gear from them.

The SS 120mm was among the last series of lenses developed bij Schneider, when i am not mistaken, which makes it much rarer, saught after and also more expensive. On top of that: the image circle of 18cm doesn't leave that much room for movements on 4x5. The Nikon AW 120mm might be an alternative to consider when you are after this focal length. With 25 cm it has way more image circle without getting big and heavy and i bet you wouldn't see much difference in the actual prints.
But: I think the difference in focal length between a 90mm and a 120 isn't that big. So perhaps something a bit longer might be wise. The 135mm and 150mm lenses are plentyful and when you decide on a Nikon 300mm you could consider even a 180mm.

One last remark: the word telelens in large format is generally used for lenses that are build in such a way that they use less bellows draw then you would expect from their focal lenght. Examples are the Schneider tele-xenar 360mm which needs about 210mm bellows draw at infinity and the Nikon T*-ED 360mm that needs about 26cm to achieve that goal.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I personally think there's enough difference in focal length between 90mm and 120mm lenses. Some like less, others prefer more. On average, it seems a 1.5x difference in focal length is a good compromise. So a four lens kit might be 90, 135, 210 and 300. Just be aware that most lenses in the 135mm focal length don't offer much movement on 4x5 film, though it's probably enough for most non-architectural images. If you need more coverage then you could opt for 150mm instead of the 135mm but then you'll have a wider gap between 90 and 150 and a narrower gap to 210. That doesn't bother most people though.

If possible, you might consider increasing your overall budget. You can easily spend $800 on a nice used camera and another $800 on four used average (but very good) lenses. Of course, if you take your time and can accept a camera and lenses that are cosmetically challenged but otherwise good, you can probably keep the total under $1300.

 

[Alan Gales]

Thanks @Huub and @Old-N-Feeble. I'm not really concerning myself with comparing to what I've in the 35mm format. I embraced the difference already when I got my Mamiya RZ couple of years ago. I'm pretty much settled down on the HZX45-IIA. However doing some search on what all you guys said here and LFP I came across these lenses that I think will be good for start. The Nikon 90mm Nikkor SW f/8 and Schneider Super Symmar 120mm f/5.6 but I couldn't find the first one in good decent condition with good price and the second one does exist but expensive. Also since I love close landscape I usually have a telephoto and looks like the Nikon 300mm f9 Nikkor M is a good choice but it's in the 500~600$, is that about the right range?

The 90mm Nikkor SW f/8 lenses may be a little pricey right now. I haven't checked Ebay lately. There are other 90mm's out there that are less money but just as good. I've got a Schneider SA 121mm f/8 lens that I picked up for less than $200 and that included shipping. It has a large enough image circle to cover 8x10 straight on without movements. It is single coated but don't let that bother you. Just shade it like any lens. All my lenses are single coated. I had a Nikkor M 300mm lens. Great lens! I paid $400 for mine but sold it for just under $500 a few years ago to finance my 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar. The $500 to $600 price today seems right. If you don't mind heavy then look at a 300mm f/5.6 lens meant for 8x10. They sell for around $300. I don't know what the bed extension is on HZX45-IIA. You might look for a Tele lens.

If you want to save money, it can be done. You just have to be knowledgeable, patient and not too picky.

 

[jimjm]

Also, don't neglect to consider Caltar branded lenses, as they are usually less expensive than the bigger names. Most of them are just rebadged Schneider or Rodenstock lenses, sold by Calumet Photo.