T-Max 100... Actual Speed?

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EASmithV

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Ok, well I've been shooting through a box of t-max 100 and I have almost finished. A few sheets in, I started to notice a trend, but thought nothing of it. Almost all the way through the box though, I can say it is consistent. Whenever I shoot T-max 100 at 100 and process for the recommended time at the recommended temperature, the negative comes out flat, low contrast, and under-developed looking. I have tried developing this film in D-76, HC-110, and T-max developer, all with the same result.

Do any of you shoot this film as if it was a lower ISO? Am I just going nuts?
 

Andrew O'Neill

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When I was using T-max 100, I shot it at EI 64 developed in Xtol 1+1 and D-76 1+1 for a time that was longer than what the manufacturer recommended. Sorry, I haven't used this film in over ten years, so I can't remember what development times I used. Shoot a few sheets at 64 and develop one sheet at the recommended time. Give longer dev times for each successive sheet. Print them and see which one works best for you.
 

BobNewYork

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It's been a year since I've shot it but my EI for TMX was always 100. If your negs are flat that would suggest under-development. Do you have sufficient stock developer per film? Sufficient agitation? Right temperature? How do the edge markings look? That you have this problem with all three developers tends to suggest your development technique - but then, if you don't have this issue with other films that should rule that out.

Bob H
 

Barry S

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Recommended developing times are only ballpark starting points. Examine your negatives closely. If you don't see enough shadow detail (shadows look clear when there should be detail), lower your EI. If the highlights aren't dense enough in the negative, increase your development time. I shoot mostly TMAX100 and always rate it at EI 50. That works for me, but everyone needs to adjust to their own system (metering/agitation/temp/etc). Just pick one good developer and make adjustments, because swapping developers is just going to add to the confusion. Feel free to bring some negs to next LF/Alt process meeting at VisArts in Rockville and I'll be happy to take a look at them.

http://photogathering.blogspot.com/
 
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Bruce Watson

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The Zone System was invented to solve exactly this problem (and more). The actual ISO speed of the film is posted on the box. But that's only valid for the ISO test suite. That is, exposure under their conditions, developed using their developer and process, all that.

What you might want to consider doing is finding your own personal exposure index (EI) that works for your equipment, your exposure methods, your developer, your processing methods, etc. How to run and interpret this testing is described in many books on the Zone System and its many variants. I personally like the "original." That is, Adams' book The Negative. Fred Picker's book Zone VI Workshop is also good, a different take on the same subject, and many think considerably more readable.

The next thing to do is find your personal "N" development time. Also described in the various books.

The bottom line here is that we each introduce way too many variables in exposing and processing film -- this is why my telling you my personal EI and development times is pretty meaningless. You'll almost certainly get different results, because you almost certainly work differently than I do. No way around doing the testing yourself. Sorry.
 

BradS

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Whenever I shoot T-max 100 at 100 and process for the recommended time at the recommended temperature, the negative comes out flat, low contrast, and under-developed looking.

Sounds like you maybe just ned to develop a little longer...

increasing exposure will give more density but if underdevloped, it will still result in a flat , low contrast neg.
 

Q.G.

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Just to show that it is a very variable thingy: i always rate TMX at ISO 100 and get fine results, but have to lower the ISO to 200 for TMY.
I always process them in T-Max developer. As near as per-recommendation as makes no difference for the TMX, 40% shorter than recommended for TMY.

Don't break out the Zone System too soon, by the way.
Finding what ISO works best for you and your developer + way of processing is basic B&W photography.
 
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Barry S

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...
Finding what ISO works best for you and your developer + way of processing is basic B&W photography.

Yes, the zone system (and all its variants) is something to consider, but at the heart this is a simple process. Don't get hung up on somebody's EI or developing time--including the package.
 

Chuck_P

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Do any of you shoot this film as if it was a lower ISO? Am I just going nuts?

I've tested this combination but while using HC-110 dil H (1:63)-----my "normal" time is 10.5 min at EI64 with inversion agitation in a combi-plan tank. My results reflect my process and agitation sequence but you can try it and see what happens for you.
 
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The Zone System was invented to solve exactly this problem (and more). The actual ISO speed of the film is posted on the box. But that's only valid for the ISO test suite. That is, exposure under their conditions, developed using their developer and process, all that.


I've covered this topic in great detail else where, so I'll just point out that the idea that ISO speed doesn't refer to real world conditions is simply a myth. Also, Zone System testing has a flaw or at the very least a different set of conditions in determining film speed. So, you can either consider that it's impossible to compare ZS speed to ISO speed or that ZS produces inaccurate results. Add to that the question of the validity of a fixed density method of speed determination and how a fixed density method was never the intent of those who created B&W film speed determination. Their position, in effect, is that film has only one film speed for a given film/developer combination over a rather wide range of processing (approximately -1 to +2).

Actually, there should be a a distinction between film speed and pragmatic method of making an exposure. What most people attribute to film speed is more about personal working methods. Film speed is about scientific methodology. How you use your light meter and other personal working methods have a higher degree of influence to how you expose than the actual film speed. My advice is to start with the ISO speed, then make adjustments based on the results.
 
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EASmithV

EASmithV

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I usually develop in a sheet film roll tank. While the exposures have both shadow and highlight detail, the density is still fairly low. It just dosent feel right to me...

I shot some at ISO 50 and dev'd for 7 min in HC-110 Dil-B, and it seems to be a little better. I'm just used to having darker tones on my Tri-X negatives.
 

ZoneIII

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Hi,

TMAX100 has been my primary large format film since it was introduced. My standard developer has always been HC110-B. TMAX developers had not been introduced at that time but I did test them when they did come out. They (TMAX developers) produced a speed of around E.I. 80-100 for me. I still prefer HC110-B. (I also tested D76, Rodinol, PMK Pyro, and various other developers and film speed varies with them, of course). The film speed that you determine for any film depends on the developer you choose, your meter, methods, and other variables, as you know. That said, my tests show that HC110-B it has an E.I. of 64 for me. It's actually between 64 and 80 so I rate it at 64. I should also mention that even though I have a Jobo processor, I still prefer to process my black and white sheet film in trays so that is a factor. From what I have seen, that's about the same rating that other photographers have arrived at with this film/developer combination when processing in trays and, in fact, I believe that's what John Sexton arrived at too when he first started testing the film for Kodak but I believe he later switched to D76 processed in his Jobo. I determine the actual speed and development times of my film/developer combinations using the standard practice of achieving .10 d.u. over base plus fog for an Zone I exposure. My tested speed for the film is the same with both the new and older version of the film but development times did change. By the way, I also find this film/developer combination to have an E.I. of 64 in roll form when processed in tanks on reels.

When TMAX films first came out, and probably even today (I don't hang out in forums much so I don't keep up on stuff very well), it had a reputation for being very touchy. I found it to be exactly the opposite when developed in HC110-B. In fact, the film was so INsenstive to development tin HC110 hat it was actually difficult to achieve expanded development. I brought this up in a forum years ago and found that other photographers had noticed this as well but nobody knew why this was the case. I contacted Kodak about it many years ago and talked to someone who said that TMAX100 developed in HC110-B was indeed very forgiving and insensitive to development time changes. He explained why that was but I have forgotten what he said. I know that HC110 is a compensating developer but, according to the Kodak chemist, that wasn't the reason for the way the film reacts that way in HC110. Another primary b&w sheet film that I use is TRI-X and I find it to be MUCH more responsive to development time changes than TMAX100 when developed in HC110-B. That goes against conventional thought about TMAX but I have confirmed it repeatedly when doing calibration and through many years of actually shooting the film.

A year or two ago, I changed my method of expanding development with all film/developer combinations and found my new method to be very useful for TMAX100, in particular. I now achieve the first zone of expansion with selenium toning and if I need, say N+2, I give it N+1 development and then selenium toning at a dilution of 1:2 for six minutes. I have found that selenium toning gives precisely a one zone expansion with all the film/developer combinations that I use. It has other benefits as well. It leaves your options open, for example. You can proof your negatives and then expand them with selenium if necessary. It's great for expanding roll film frames too. It also doesn't increase grain like expanded development can do which is very nice for roll film and it also increases the archival properties of the film. (I know I have got off the track here but you may find this info useful.)

For contracted development I dilute HC110 stock to 1:15 (twice the dilution of HC110-B).

It's been a while since I have visited APUG but I don't see how to post an attachment but I would be happy to send you a list of my development times with for TMAX100 in HC110-B, tray processed, if you like. It includes the film speed changes for expanded and contracted development.
 
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ZoneIII

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I'll post a cut & past of my test results in case you or someone else may find them useful. These test results are all for the new version of TMAX100 sheet film tray processed.



TMAX 100 Sheet Film Developing Times (Tray Processed)

HC110

(These are all total development times for sheet film developed at 68 degrees in trays after a 1-minute pre-soak. There is NO count for pre-soak before starting timer.



N……………….. 5 minutes HC110-B (E.I. 64)
_____________________________________________________________________

N+1……………...7 ½ minutes HC110-B (E.I. 100)
OR
N+1………………5 minutes HC110-B plus 6 minutes selenium toner 1:2 (E.I. 64)

_____________________________________________________________________


N+2………………12 minutes HC110-B (E.I. 100)
OR
N+2……………….7 ½ minutes HC110-B plus 6 minutes selenium toner 1:2 (E.I. 100)

_____________________________________________________________________


N+3……………….12 minutes HC110-B plus 6 minutes selenium toner 1:2 (E.I. 100)

_____________________________________________________________________

N-1……………….8 minutes HC110 1:15 (E.I. 50)

_____________________________________________________________________

N-2……………….6 minutes HC110 1:15 (E.I. 40)

_____________________________________________________________________

N-3 ………………4 minutes HC110 1:15 (E.I. 25)
 

pgomena

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Film speed and development time are the basic tests for establishing you own working system, whether it's the zone system or whatever you want to call it. Find a used copy of Fred Picker's Zone VI Workshop for a quick, concise introduction.

Personally, I found TMX to be slow and to need more development than recommended. Your methods and results may vary.

Peter Gomena
 
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I've covered this topic in great detail else where, so I'll just point out that the idea that ISO speed doesn't refer to real world conditions is simply a myth. .

I've been shooting film for 30 years and have always started with the box speed and rarely departed from it. While I don't have emperical evidence to prove that it is a myth, I can say that in 30 years of shooting at box speed, I have RARELY seen negatives under exposed.

Another question, if the ISO speed is simply a measurement based on un-real conditions (hence arbitrary), why is that we only hear people say the box speed is over-stated and NEVER under-stated. If box speed is as artificial as claimed, shouldn't there be almost as many cases in the "real world" where the box speed was too low?

Could it be that the difference between a manufacturer's box speed and a photographer's "real speed" is as much natural skeptecism as actual fact? In other words, we are inclined to disbelieve just about anything a manufacturer claims about it's product (film, cars, TVs, drugs...). We just naturally discount product specification claims.

I'm just asking the question.
 

removed account4

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bracket a handful of exposures
and then develop them in your developer of choice.
then, after you decide what you like the best,
do it again, but under and over develop your film .
this way you will see how your film works for you,
with your shooting and processing methods.

i always tend to over expose by 1 stop, no matter what film i use
... but my shooting, developer and developing methods
are different than yours.

have fun!

john
 

sidearm613

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Ok, well I've been shooting through a box of t-max 100 and I have almost finished. A few sheets in, I started to notice a trend, but thought nothing of it. Almost all the way through the box though, I can say it is consistent. Whenever I shoot T-max 100 at 100 and process for the recommended time at the recommended temperature, the negative comes out flat, low contrast, and under-developed looking. I have tried developing this film in D-76, HC-110, and T-max developer, all with the same result.

Do any of you shoot this film as if it was a lower ISO? Am I just going nuts?

For me, TMX, and most Kodak films in general tend to work fine at the advertised ISO. I guess some people here have had a lot of success using it at EI 64, but I can neither confirm or deny that. all I can say is that with TMX and all T-grain films, you have to be super super consistent with your agitation, especially in developer, or bad things will happen. TMAX is similar to color film in this way, so be hyper careful with that. and time and temperature as well, much more critical to get these two right on the money with T-grain, much more so than say, plus-X.
 

2F/2F

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There will be variation between Kodak's, Ilford's, and each of our own results. You have to test yourself if you want to find out your answer to this question.

The number one thing you must also do is to learn to meter "properly" and consistently. You can throw various EIs and development at a problem that simply boils down to metering technique. I would start with a good old grey card (or incident meter). If you can add a spot meter on top of this in order to really get a handle on things like luminace range in your composition, you are going to have an even easier time with your tests.

This is one test method I like. It is long and wordy, but pretty darned simple to do. Once you do it, you are set up very well as long as you meter in a consisent manner.

On a tripod, shoot a scene that has a luminance range that is about 6 EVs ("stops") from the darkest area in the composition that you want to show texture (*not* detail; texture), to the lightest area in the composition that you want to show texture. The easiest way I have found to do this without purpose-made test charts is to set something up using light and dark fabrics draped over opposite shoulders of a person, and also have them hold a grey card. Get fabrics with a texture that is visible through your lens. You don't want fabrics that are too smooth, as your test prints will be harder to judge.

Meter the grey card, both cloths, and take note of these readings. If they are not exactly 6 EV apart, it is fine, as long as you have notes of what they really were. One thing you DO NOT want is for the dark fabric to measure more than 3 EV lower than the grey card, however. If you have an incident light meter that you intend to use with this film, take a reading from on top of the grey card and notate that as well. (All the calibration will be done using a reflected meter, but you want the incidennt reading just to figure out how far you will need to tweak your EI when you use the incident meter instead of the reflected one.)

Use a moderate shutter speed, not a super fast one, as super fast or slow ones have a greater likelihood of being significantly off in my experience. Use box speed. If your apertures can be set in half stops, make five exposures. One one stop under your meter reading, one 1/2 stop under, one at the reading, one 1/2 stop over, and one one stop over. If your apertures can be set in 1/3 stops, make seven exposures, and do the bracketting in 1/3 stops instead of half stops.

Process these five (or seven) negs, as well as a totally unexposed neg, the way you intend to process in the future. After they are all dry, print the blank frame at your most common print size so that it is *just* below the threshold of maximum black after dry down. (Obviously, you will need a maximum black refernce print as well. To get this, process a piece of paper with the room lights on so that it is fully exposed.) Once you are in the ballpark, you will need to bracket print exposures by seconds to do this accurately. Once you have this print time and aperture, print all of the other negs at this same exact print time. Hold processing until they have all been exposed. Process them all at the same time if you can, or at least half at once, followed by the other half. (This will reduce the impact of print developer exhaustion. It is not a huge deal with only a handful of prints in a tray with a few liters of developer, but you are trying to minimize as many variables as possible in the testing phase.) Dry the prints and view them in the type and intensity of light in which your prints will most often be viewed.

Label the back of each print as follows for 1/2 stop aperture precision:

Darkest print: EI 200
Next darkest print: EI 100+1/2
Print made from meter-recommended exposure: EI 100
Next lightest print: EI 50+1/2
Lightest print: EI 50

...and for 1/3 stop aperture precision:

Darkest print: EI 200
Next darkest print: EI 160
Next darkest print: EI 125
Print made from meter-recommended exposure: EI 100
Next lightest print: EI 80
Next lightest print: EI 64
Lightest print: EI 50

Take out your notes. Look at the reading of the dark fabric compared to the grey card. How many EV apart were the two? If they were three EV apart, look for the print that *barely* shows texture on the fabric. Texture and detail are different. You are not looking for discernible details, but for the first hint of something other than flat tonality.

If the readings were 2-1/3, 2-1/2, or 2-2/3 EVs apart, look for the same thing, but not at the point at which the texture *just* becomes visible. If 2-2/3, you are going to be very close to being able to see detail. You will have to use your judgement as to what you personally want to call the crossover point between detail and texture". For "detail", you should be able to see the fabric threads clearly, not just as a kind of fuzzy field.

If the dark fabric and the grey card were 2 EV apart, you want to pick out the print that shows the first sign of what you call "detail".

So, depending on how far apart the black fabric measured from the grey card, you will pick out the print that "properly" rendered the black fabric as it "should" appear in reference to the gray card. The EI on the back of this print will almost certainly be a better working EI than box speed for you in most situations. If you tested with 1/2 stop precision, and picked one of the prints with a "+1/2" after the EI, use the EI before the "+1/2", and when setting your exposure, always stop down 1/2 stop past what your meter recommends. Or, if your light meter will allow it, set it in between the same EI and the next higher doubling of it. For instance, if you got "EI 100+1/2", set your EI halfway in between 100 and 200 (which is also halfway in between EI 125 and 160).

Then, lay all the prints out again. This time pick out the one that rendered the light cloth where it "should" have been rendered given its EV spread from the grey card. Do the same thing you did to determine the proper rendering of the dark cloth, comparing texture and detail. Detail should be present if the grey card and the light cloth were 2 EV from each other. Only texture should be present if they were more than 2EV from each other. If they were more than 3 EV from each other, this next part is probably best suited for a separate test, unfortunately, though you can get close.

Now that you have picked out the prints that have appropriately-rendered light cloth and dark cloth (I will just call them "the light print" and "the dark print" from here on out), there are three possibilities for analyzing your development:

1. If the light print is the same print as the dark print, your development time is fine as you did it.
2. If the light print is from a negative that received more exposure than the negative used for the dark exposure, you need to increase your develoment time by about as many 1/3s or 1/2s as the two prints are from each other to get to a decent developing time. For instance, if you got EI 80 on the back of the dark print, and the light print is marked EI 50, you need to add enough development to raise the tone of the light cloth 2/3 of a step on a greyscale.
3. If the light print is from a negative that received less exposure than the negative used for the dark exposure, you need to decrease your development time, etc. (see above). For example, if you got EI 80 on the back of the dark print, and the light print is marked EI 125, you need to take away enough development to lower the tone of the light cloth by 2/3 of a step on a greyscale.

All right. You have a working EI, and a rough idea of how to tweak development. Now go back and test again using your working EI. Take notes so you know how the white and dark cloths "should" be rendered compared to the grey card. Make a handful of identical exposures. Process one, using an estimate as to what you need to do with development time based on the results of the last test. Print it just like you printed the prints from the last test. Analyze. If not right, do the same thing with the remaining sheets until it is.

Then you have a working EI and a normal develoment time. With that, you can pretty well guess how to handle any situation that requires either a reduction or incease in contrast.

Since you took a comparative reading between your camera meter and your inceident meter (which should both theoretically give you the same EV), you can also use your incident meter, after compensating the EI to which you set it to match results from the reflected meter. For instance, if the incident meter read 1/3 EV less light than the reflected meter off of the grey card (meaning that it recommended giving 1/3 stop more exposure), you set it to 1/3 EI higher than the one you found in the test.

Good, luck, and don't forget that this is all about YOUR judgement in YOUR aesthetic pursuits. You are not aiming for tightly defined values, but simply for the ability to get what you want from your shot.
 
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2F/2F

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I've covered this topic in great detail else where, so I'll just point out that the idea that ISO speed doesn't refer to real world conditions is simply a myth. Also, Zone System testing has a flaw or at the very least a different set of conditions in determining film speed. So, you can either consider that it's impossible to compare ZS speed to ISO speed or that ZS produces inaccurate results. Add to that the question of the validity of a fixed density method of speed determination and how a fixed density method was never the intent of those who created B&W film speed determination. Their position, in effect, is that film has only one film speed for a given film/developer combination over a rather wide range of processing (approximately -1 to +2).

Actually, there should be a a distinction between film speed and pragmatic method of making an exposure. What most people attribute to film speed is more about personal working methods. Film speed is about scientific methodology. How you use your light meter and other personal working methods have a higher degree of influence to how you expose than the actual film speed. My advice is to start with the ISO speed, then make adjustments based on the results.

I wholly agree, and I feel that the last paragraph is the most important point. (After all, the ZS has worked just fne for many, many people, myself included, so I can't pass it off as being without use.)

Try convincing color neg shooters of this, however, and you are in for a fight. Nobody is willing to even consider that they might be chronically underexposing things, while they will gladly accept that the manufacturers ISO ratings all needing to be halved as a matter of course. In reality, I think people got used to using the method of blind half rating as a safety net to cover metering slop, lack of testing, and inconsistency of processing, and then went on to find ways to justify it from a technical sense. There are certainly times to employ the "blanket" of an intentional re-rate with color neg (or b/w), but not as a matter of course without testing.
 
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2F/2F

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Another question, if the ISO speed is simply a measurement based on un-real conditions (hence arbitrary), why is that we only hear people say the box speed is over-stated and NEVER under-stated. If box speed is as artificial as claimed, shouldn't there be almost as many cases in the "real world" where the box speed was too low?QUOTE]

Probably because what many people (of the do-your-own-testing variety) consider to be a useful EI is different than what manufacturers consider to be the film's ISO rating.

Also, because lots of people get addicted to the advice of blindly downrating, which is given out by many a frustrated and lazy instructor to beginning students. Rather than find out for themselves what EI works best for them, they choose to lean on the latitude of negative film instead of learning to meter and expose carefully.

I also disagree that box speed is NEVER understated. I shoot FP4 at 200 based on testing for a zone 2 placement, and Portra 400NC at 500 based on testing to make a grey card exposure match what Kodak says it should be on a densitometer.
 
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Q.G.

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It might also be because, when negative films are concerned at least, it is worse to underexpose than overexpose.
Mistakes in metering and exposure are more evident when they result in not recording bits, then when they result is a bit too much density.
 

2F/2F

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It might also be because, when negative films are concerned at least, it is worse to underexpose than overexpose.
Mistakes in metering and exposure are more evident when they result in not recording bits, then when they result is a bit too much density.

I agree. That is just what I meant by saying that many people learn to lean on the latitude of negative film, and also the reason why the frustrated and lazy teachers suggest this.
 
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Another question, if the ISO speed is simply a measurement based on un-real conditions (hence arbitrary), why is that we only hear people say the box speed is over-stated and NEVER under-stated. If box speed is as artificial as claimed, shouldn't there be almost as many cases in the "real world" where the box speed was too low?QUOTE]

Probably because what many people (of the do-your-own-testing variety) consider to be a useful EI is different than what manufacturers consider to be the film's ISO rating.

Ultimately, they are different testing systems. It's like comparing apples and oranges. There used to be a number of different official speed methods. The US has had a number. Germany's DIN and Russia's GOST are also rather well known. While each produce acceptable results in most cases, you really couldn't do a straight comparison of film speeds.

The thread asks for the actual speed of TMX. That would be the ISO speed. How you use it, and that includes any personal testing, is the exposure index.

People who claim the "box speed" is some how false simply don't have a good understanding of film speed.
 

Q.G.

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The question is about whether the ISO speed can be used as exposure index.
 
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Another question, if the ISO speed is simply a measurement based on un-real conditions (hence arbitrary), why is that we only hear people say the box speed is over-stated and NEVER under-stated. If box speed is as artificial as claimed, shouldn't there be almost as many cases in the "real world" where the box speed was too low?
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I wrote about this in the January/February 2005 issue of PHOTO Techniques in an article titled Flare and Accurate Film Speeds.

Notice how those who make this the claim about manufacturers overrating the film tend to be people who have tested their film using Zone System techniques? Notice how they almost universally achieve a rating between1/2 stop to 1 stop under ISO box speed rating? It's more about the way the testing is done than the actually speed of the film.
 
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