Syncing a modern flash with an older folding medium format camera

[fabulousrice]

I would like to use a modern flash (usually triggered by the camera's hotshoe, such as a Braun Hobby 140B or a Sunflash 260T etc) with a Zenobia folding camera.

The flash gun socket looks like this.

As you can see on the photo, the shutter cocking arm comes very near to the flash plug, so the adapter will need to be small and flexible so that the flash can be oriented instead of attached to that particular area of the camera.

I looked online but wasn't sure exactly what to look for and would love to hear it from someone who knows what they're talking about before buying the wrong thing

 

[BradS]

I think you need/want something like this...

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/electronic-flash-asa-pc-adapter-kodak-406720117

here's some for sale...
https://www.thinkamiable.fun/detail...t-Ektar-Graflex-Medalist_91bknklijiqhpjp.html

 

[DWThomas]

(Not to be a wet blanket, but ...)

I certainly understand the desire to do this, but another concern might be synchronization. If the camera shutter you adapt has X sync, you're good to go, but if it only has M sync I would expect the electronic flash would fire before the shutter was anywhere near fully open.

As I understand it, M sync essentially activates the flash contact about 20 mSec ahead of the shutter being fully open. With electronic flash duration being a millisecond or so, there would be no light left by the time the shutter was fully open.

It occurs to me it might be possible to make a little gizmo of some sort to put inline with the flash cable and delay the "signal" 20 mSec (but I'm not volunteering to try! ) For all I know, some enterprising soul may be making such a thing, I've never looked.

In some cases it might be possible to have a shutter wizard modify the mechanics to remove the M delay, e.g., make it X sync.

Anyway, those are some considerations that come to mind.

 

[BobD]

I have a Zenobia and it only has M-sync (suitable for flash bulbs only)

If you are so inclined, there is a solution posted here:
https://www.instructables.com/Electronic-Flash-M-Sync-Hack/

I haven't tried this myself. There are probably other such hacks posted online.

 

[Helge]

It occurs to me it might be possible to make a little gizmo of some sort to put inline with the flash cable and delay the "signal" 20 mSec (but I'm not volunteering to try! ) For all I know, some enterprising soul may be making such a thing, I've never looked.

In some cases it might be possible to have a shutter wizard modify the mechanics to remove the M delay, e.g., make it X sync.

Anyway, those are some considerations that come to mind.

If you find this or make it, make sure to tell me where or how, here or by PM.
I’ve been trying to do one for years to do very short delay strobe effects.
It’s possible to use one of the 555 circuits or simple capacitor delay available on eBay, but they are clunky and require separate power.

One simple solution to the OP problem (if X sync is not there) would be to just shoot at slower speeds. Like 25 or 10.
You won’t be able to do meaningful daylight sync. But nightshots with a steady hand would look very good (lots of ambient).

 

[DWThomas]

One simple solution to the OP problem (if X sync is not there) would be to just shoot at slower speeds. Like 25 or 10.
You won’t be able to do meaningful daylight sync. But nightshots with a steady hand would look very good (lots of ambient).

No, with M sync the flash signal is set multiple milliseconds before the shutter starts to open. The flash fires instantly and there is no light left by the time the shutter opens. Using slow speeds works to use flash bulbs with X sync, that's a matter of keeping the shutter open until the bulb ignites and reaches full output. (My 1957 vintage Argus C-3 goes that route "use 1/25 for flashbulbs."

BobD just above shows a link to one guy's solution. It's a pretty elaborate project for being a "simple" function. I dunno, if the electronic flash uses TTL level triggering, it might be possible to implement some sort of RC time delay with just a few passive components, but I would expect it might have reliability problems with the variations in different makes and models of flash.

 

[Helge]

No, with M sync the flash signal is set multiple milliseconds before the shutter starts to open. The flash fires instantly and there is no light left by the time the shutter opens. Using slow speeds works to use flash bulbs with X sync, that's a matter of keeping the shutter open until the bulb ignites and reaches full output. (My 1957 vintage Argus C-3 goes that route "use 1/25 for flashbulbs."

BobD just above shows a link to one guy's solution. It's a pretty elaborate project for being a "simple" function. I dunno, if the electronic flash uses TTL level triggering, it might be possible to implement some sort of RC time delay with just a few passive components, but I would expect it might have reliability problems with the variations in different makes and models of flash.

Right. My head wasn’t screwed on right.
Doesn’t help that the bulbs I use are almost all X sync. Not a lot of practice thinking about M sync.
One small niche it’s good for with electro is luminescence photography.

 

[BobD]

I wonder if one could use a flash bulb to trigger an electronic slave flash. Kinda Rube Goldberg-ish but maybe it would work?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Just use X synch with a strobe for any older camera with a PC attachment. M synch is only for M type flash bulbs.

 

[DWThomas]

Just use X synch with a strobe for any older camera with a PC attachment. M synch is only for M type flash bulbs.

Yabbut, some older pre-electronic flash cameras do not have X sync -- that's where this whole monkey business started. My Perkeo II has an M-X switch and I've used it with a circa 1980 Canon 188A flash quite successfully. But odds are, some cameras from the 30s and 40s may only have M available; this Zenobia folder named in post #1 is such a beast. With today's Arduinos and the like, and 3-D printing, one could probably come up with a small cube that would look similar to a hot-shoe to PC cable adapter -- but not during a single lunch hour!

 

[Dan Daniel]

Does anyone know how they made the flash delay in these shutters? I've seen simple X sync on a variety of older shutters- you are closing a circuit, nothing more, and you place a simple reed-type switch tied to the shutter blade mechanism to have the switch close when the shutter blades are fully open. There is a drop-in block for Compurs that replaces the cable release with a flash sync of this type. But maybe I have been wrong about this sync system. Maybe you simply have the switch close a bit before full open? You'd need an oscilliscope to see the 20 milliseconds or whatever delay, but I guess this could be done and could be the real standard, not an X sync.

Most M syncs involve an escapement. But this is for multi-sync cameras- both M and X.

OP, what are the markings on the camera- brand name, any model details?

 

[fabulousrice]

Does anyone know how they made the flash delay in these shutters? I've seen simple X sync on a variety of older shutters- you are closing a circuit, nothing more, and you place a simple reed-type switch tied to the shutter blade mechanism to have the switch close when the shutter blades are fully open. There is a drop-in block for Compurs that replaces the cable release with a flash sync of this type. But maybe I have been wrong about this sync system. Maybe you simply have the switch close a bit before full open? You'd need an oscilliscope to see the 20 milliseconds or whatever delay, but I guess this could be done and could be the real standard, not an X sync.

Most M syncs involve an escapement. But this is for multi-sync cameras- both M and X.

OP, what are the markings on the camera- brand name, any model details?

It's a Zenobia - here are manuals for the camera and the flash here https://www.butkus.org/chinon/zenobia/zenobia.htm

BUT - could I use a soft trigger for the camera and have it also trigger the flash? Kind of like a soft trigger with two ends and one would be for the camera and one would be for the flash?

Is there such a soft trigger or such a flash somewhere?

 

[MattKing]

What do you mean by a "soft trigger"? A cable release?
The difference between the necessary times - X synch vs, M synch - is a small fraction of a second.

 

[BrianShaw]

You are trying to do the impossible. Use a Type M flashbulb and enjoy living like it’s 1965 all over again.

 

[BrianShaw]

… or open the shutter on ‘b’, manually trip the strobe, and close the shutter. If you’re quick enough you probably can do the same on 1second, also.

 

[Mr Bill]

Hi, I I were in your shoes I'd probably just get one of those recent hot shoe flash units (that can also be triggered with a cable) that has the capability of "stroboscopic" use. (By which I mean multiple flashes.)

The only one I ever played with seriously was the Canon 580EXII, but I'm sure there are plenty more with that capability (and much cheaper I'm sure).

Here's basically what you would do (for Canon, the 2008 user manual, #CT1-7768-001 see page 24-25): set flash power to 1/4 (this is highest setting available for multi-flash, so as to not overheat the unit). Next set Hertz; you want this to be a bit lower than 50 Hz (50 Hz means a flash every 20 milliseconds, or 25 Hz means every 40 ms, etc.). Finally set the number of flashes = 2. (2 is the maximum number of flashes allowed, anyway, at that power setting.)

Then rig up whatever electrical cable you need to fire the flash.

Here's what happens in use: you trip the camera shutter and the sync points close a circuit to light the flash (even though the shutter is not yet open). So your flash unit immediately fires (you don't really care about this). Then about 20 milliseconds later your flash fires again - this time you hope the shutter is fully open, exposing the film (with 1/4 flash power...the most the flash unit will allow in stroboscopic mode). Then the flash is finished with its stroboscopic cycle and is ready for another double-flash shot.

Your subject may notice the double flash but who cares?

If for some reason the shutter is not open by then you can set a longer delay for the flash. Hertz means cycles per second, so if you divide 1,000 by your Hz setting this will give the milliseconds between flashes.

If you plan to buy a flash unit online check the user manual first to make sure it allows the settings you need.

 

[Mr Bill]

Just for the heck of it I semi-randomly picked out a Godox flash unit, model TT600... $65 on Amazon. I dunno how you would trigger it, exactly, but I downloaded the user manual and it seems to have very nearly the same stroboscopic settings as the Canon unit I just mentioned. So it may be a very common feature on moderately priced modern "hot shoe" flash units.