Switching to Kodak Flexicolor Chemistry

tron_ said:

Can anyone comment on roughly how much I would save by replenishing versus using the chemicals one-shot?

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Sorry, I can't; there are so many variations on the configuration, and my direct experience is out of date. Plus I don't recommend deviating from the Z manual, which says single-use only from a rotary processor.

But going from Z manual specs, etc., if you used a sink line you would use ~25 mL developer replen per roll. With a larger "continuous" processor, this would be ~9 mL per roll. Whereas currently you are using 2500 mL of developer replenisher(?) per 20 rolls (you initially said per week, but last post says per month). Anyway, 2500 mL/20 rolls = 125 mL/roll. So compared to now, at 125 mL LORR dev replenisher per roll, a sink line could be about 25/125 = 1/5 the chemical cost. And the large continuous processor would only be about 9/125 =~ 1/15 of the cost. (You should double-check my numbers; it seems strange that they are so drastically different.)

Back when I was heavily involved, we ran non-LORR developer and an earlier version of the bleach. In 50 ft/min cine processors we HAD to aerate bleach in the processor (spargers on bottom of tank), then we collected and regenerated the bleach overflow. We ran a 3-stage counter-current flow fixer system in order to help meet silver effluent limitations, which were crazy low - something like 2/10 milligram per liter, about 25 times lower than the US drinking water standard. (If you simply took film out of a single fixer bath and into wash water, that water would be way over the limit.) Anyway, the process configurations can have a large effect on overall chemical costs; there's no simple answer.

bvy said:

I post this often. You say you're running a lab, but if you're processing by hand (a Jobo, you say) and your volume isn't huge, then this should work fine.

C-41 Developer Replenisher ($13.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Separate Bleach and Fix ($34.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-processing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

Final Rinse ($2.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-tank-final-rinse-1925254/

This makes ~6.5 liters of working solution developer. You'll have starter leftover for the next purchases of developer/replenisher. Use the bleach straight. Mix the fixer 1+1 with water. Let me know if you have any questions.

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So these are the best chemicals for using Flexicolor one-shot? Of course I won't need the developer starter if I use this one-shot. Are there any mixing instructions online? I'm trying to figure out what our cost per roll would be.

Also in terms of storage, what kind of precautions do I need to take in order to ensure the chemistry stays fresh as long as possible?

tron_ said:

So these are the best chemicals for using Flexicolor one-shot? Of course I won't need the developer starter if I use this one-shot. Are there any mixing instructions online? I'm trying to figure out what our cost per roll would be.

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I think bvy has it figured out as the best deal alright. The instructions are in the Z100-2 manual from the earlier post. You DO need the developer starter though (plus the right amount of water), or you will have crazy high contrast. The replenisher is more concentrated and works for replenishing after the started tank solution is in place. I think we agree it isn't worth replenishing the developer but you need to start it properly.

What sfaber said. You need the starter.

The starter is good for about 25 liters of developer/replenisher -- or five of the units shown. So one bottle of starter at $13 plus 5 boxes of developer/replesnisher at $13.95 each comes to a total of $82.75 and will make about 32.5 liters of working solution. If you figure 300ml per roll, one shot, that's good for 108 rolls and comes to about 75 cents per roll. You can adjust as you see fit, but that's the basic math behind it. I didn't include the cost of shipping or water (I use distilled water).

You might consider a larger volume of developer for convenience and further cost savings. Take a look at this:
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-entwickler-flxclr-devr-rplr-3667805/

Regarding storage, glass or thick plastic bottles that store a liter or more of solution. They should be filled to capacity and have good caps. I've kept working solution developer up to a year this way. Maybe look at specialtybottle.com. If you place an order, explicitly ask for the polyseal caps.

Mr Bill said:

Mike, thanks for your input on this. Having considerable experience with the C-41/RA-4 film/paper processes I was pretty skeptical this could be done beyond a batch or two. At least without drastically boosting the replenishment rate.

I started out to make some estimates of how much damage the air in the Jobo tank could do, and how much replenisher would be needed to counteract this, but . . . I found that the replenishment rate for a sink line (the 3rd section of the Z manual) is nearly 3 times higher than for continuous processors!! (And, as I suggested earlier, Kodak says to do single use, only, for a rotary processor.)

Now that I see the drastically higher replenisher rates (~3x) I'm not going to make the effort of calculated estimates; these high rates explain a lot.

When I made my statement that replenished systems are drastically cheaper, I was going by my experience with larger machines where, for example, a roll of 120 Portra 160 uses 9.4 ml of LORR replenisher (Z131_03, table 3-2). Whereas the sink line/rotary document calls for 25.4 ml replenisher (Z131_02, table 2-2). (But says single use only for rotary machines.) So the chemical cost savings are MUCH less on the smaller machines.

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Yes, now this is starting to make a lot more sense. I was jumping back and forth between Z manuals. I think you are correct follow the instructions from Kodak. Problem I've run into is that the chemicals for the continuous processors are much more available. This is why I have resorted to the RA bleach and fixer. I'm pretty much a follow the Kodak instructions kind of guy. I'm going to pitch my 1 liter developer "tank" and go one shot for the developer. I'm going to continue with the RA bleach and fixer. I've been bleaching for 2min 30 sec and fixing for 5. I'm still a believer in a good water wash, then a final rinse dunk. Thanks for your wise advice! Best Mike

bvy said:

What sfaber said. You need the starter.

The starter is good for about 25 liters of developer/replenisher -- or five of the units shown. So one bottle of starter at $13 plus 5 boxes of developer/replesnisher at $13.95 each comes to a total of $82.75 and will make about 32.5 liters of working solution. If you figure 300ml per roll, one shot, that's good for 108 rolls and comes to about 75 cents per roll. You can adjust as you see fit, but that's the basic math behind it. I didn't include the cost of shipping or water (I use distilled water).

You might consider a larger volume of developer for convenience and further cost savings. Take a look at this:
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-entwickler-flxclr-devr-rplr-3667805/

Regarding storage, glass or thick plastic bottles that store a liter or more of solution. They should be filled to capacity and have good caps. I've kept working solution developer up to a year this way. Maybe look at specialtybottle.com. If you place an order, explicitly ask for the polyseal caps.

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Excellent advice about the bottles and polyseal caps.I make up XTOL once a year. Keeping it in absolutely full bottles. I'm going to do this with my C-41 developer .

I must say, I am learning a lot. Mr. Bill, Thank You for your sound advice. I am finally looking at the correct Z manual. Z-131 clearly states procedure for using a tube processor for C-41. It states in bold type use one shot only! And use the Bleach to stated capacity. So for my Jobo CPP2, I will be using developer one shot. Bleach It looks like it can be used twice and then tossed. Fixer one shot, I will save and take to my photo shop for silver recovery. Wash and then stabilize off the machine.

Thanks for the advice, now it's back to the darkroom, I'm adding another Beseler 4x5 station. One full time Zone VI VC head, one full time Dichro 45S.
Best Regards, Mike

mshchem, sorry this is off the subject, but what is the advantage of a (Zone VI) VC head over using a color head to do VC B&W?

sfaber17 said:

mshchem, sorry this is off the subject, but what is the advantage of a (Zone VI) VC head over using a color head to do VC B&W?

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Not sure if there is. I have used color heads for 20 years for VC printing. I use the mixed magenta and yellow filter method that yields constant neutral density so I can change contrast and keep exposure times constant.
I picked up this head because I always wanted to try split printing with two exposures, this head has a separate control box. This way I don't jiggle the head by adjusting filtration. I have accumulated extra enlargers (rescues?) got the head for next to nothing, I've read and talked to people who are passionate about split printing.
I have my doubts, I sure like my Dichro head.
Best, Mike

you can use C41 bleach an almost infinite number of times, esp. if you use the bleach regenerator. Seriously, I lost count of how many times I have used my current 5L batch, at least 6-7 times or more. (e.g. 44-48 rolls per 5L, regenerated, x 6 or 7 = 280~350 rolls or more , and it's still going strong. )

EdSawyer said:

you can use C41 bleach an almost infinite number of times, esp. if you use the bleach regenerator. Seriously, I lost count of how many times I have used my current 5L batch, at least 6-7 times or more. (e.g. 44-48 rolls per 5L, regenerated, x 6 or 7 = 280~350 rolls or more , and it's still going strong. )

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I'm replenishing my RA Bleach at the rate of 10 mL per 80 sq. inches. At this rate my 5 L bottle should last me for next 20 years. I'm taking the one shot approach with the developer on my CPP, The Fixer I will probably do what I did with Cibachrome, use half new and half used for each batch. The developer and fix is so cheap I don't want to take any chances.
Very good advice here on this topic.
Best Regards, Mike

I only recycle the bleach, all else I use one-shot in my Phototherm. Agreed, those 3 chemicals are cheap enough to not really care about re-using them. (Dev, fix, rinse).

bvy said:

I post this often. You say you're running a lab, but if you're processing by hand (a Jobo, you say) and your volume isn't huge, then this should work fine.

C-41 Developer Replenisher ($13.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Separate Bleach and Fix ($34.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-processing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

Final Rinse ($2.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-tank-final-rinse-1925254/

This makes ~6.5 liters of working solution developer. You'll have starter leftover for the next purchases of developer/replenisher. Use the bleach straight. Mix the fixer 1+1 with water. Let me know if you have any questions.

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I purchased these chems because I was leery of the blix in the quick kits that I've been using.
Other than bleach straight and fixer 1:1 is there anything else I need to know? I don't want to screw things up.

rpavich said:

I purchased these chems because I was leery of the blix in the quick kits that I've been using.
Other than bleach straight and fixer 1:1 is there anything else I need to know? I don't want to screw things up.

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Bleach straight, three minutes. Fixer 1+1 with water six minutes. Thorough rinse after each bath. I also add a stop and rinse between developer and bleach.

Aerate the bleach periodically, and do a clearing test on the fixer periodically.

bvy said:

Bleach straight, three minutes. Fixer 1+1 with water six minutes. Thorough rinse after each bath. I also add a stop and rinse between developer and bleach.

Aerate the bleach periodically, and do a clearing test on the fixer periodically.

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If I understand it correctly with aerating there is still a limit a bleach can process. Can anyone tell how much film C-41 bleach can process? My recent liter of C-41 bleach has processed 7 or 8 rolls of 220. With some aerating it hasn't shown any sign of problem yet. But I know it will eventually need to be dumped. How much film can I expect it to process still?

My liter of fixer on the other hand does not last that long. The last roll of my 220 probably has silver retaining on it. The images are a bit more contrasty. What cleaning test can you do to the fixer? There is a bit of silver condensation (black flecks) in the fixer bottle that becomes hard to remove.

I usually bleach and fix for 6'30" with flesh beach and fixer. When they are reused I would extend the to 10 to 12 minutes for the fixer.

mtjade2007 said:

If I understand it correctly with aerating there is still a limit a bleach can process. Can anyone tell how much film C-41 bleach can process? My recent liter of C-41 bleach has processed 7 or 8 rolls of 220. With some aerating it hasn't shown any sign of problem yet. But I know it will eventually need to be dumped. How much film can I expect it to process still?

My liter of fixer on the other hand does not last that long. The last roll of my 220 probably has silver retaining on it. The images are a bit more contrasty. What cleaning test can you do to the fixer? There is a bit of silver condensation (black flecks) in the fixer bottle that becomes hard to remove.

I usually bleach and fix for 6'30" with flesh beach and fixer. When they are reused I would extend the to 10 to 12 minutes for the fixer.

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Nothing like a fleshy beach.

I don't know of a recommended capacity for bleach, nor a conclusive test. After a dozen rolls, I might replenish it at 50%. After another dozen or so, I might start with a fresh batch. For my own part, I'll gradually lose bleach to attrition (or dilution) necessitating that I replenish it before it ever goes bad.

Other may disagree, but if the fixer doesn't do its job in sixish minutes, it's time for new fixer. My own clearing test is to take a clear piece of film that I just developed and put half of it in fresh fixer (I keep a small bottle just for this purpose). Rinse and let dry. If the refixed portion of the film is noticeably clearer, it's time for new fixer.

mtjade2007 said:

If I understand it correctly with aerating there is still a limit a bleach can process. Can anyone tell how much film C-41 bleach can process? My recent liter of C-41 bleach has processed 7 or 8 rolls of 220. With some aerating it hasn't shown any sign of problem yet. But I know it will eventually need to be dumped. How much film can I expect it to process still?

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Hi, I'm not even going to guess, but it greatly depends on how much development is done. For example, if you have a very silver-rich film and it is very heavily exposed, a lot of bromide ion is released in the developer. Consequently the bleach must be depleted of that same amount of bromide. If you continue using the bleach, at some point you will "hit a wall" when it runs out of bromide.

Your best bet, IMO, is to replenish your bleach according to Kodak Z manuals. For the most part, this will keep your bromide level in an ok range.

If you wanted to try to (roughly) calculate the limit, you could try estimating the silver loading of the film, then estimate a proportion of how much is developed. For each molecule of silver developed, one molecule of bromide is released, and the bleach will be depleted by the same amount. But without reasonable certainty on the starting points, the calcs won't have much value. We used to periodically do chemical analysis on our bleach overflow, then do custom regenerations in order to reuse it as replenisher.

bvy said:

Other may disagree, but if the fixer doesn't do its job in sixish minutes, it's time for new fixer.

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I agree. Assuming we are talking the bvy list of chemicals, the normal times are 1 min for bleach and 2 min for fixer. I agree with some increase, but even 6 min for the fixer is pushing it.
One thing you can check regarding the bleach is the pH. If it goes above 4.6 then it should be acidified back to 4.6. This is probably only a problem if you don't use a stop bath though.

I use kodak's bleach regenerator for each time I recycle my 5L of c41 bleach. I lost count after using it 7 or more times, and started over with a new batch, but it was still working fine even at that point. (300 + rolls of 120 processed through it)

Thanks for the input from everyone. I guess Bleach Regeneration will be the most economical way to go. I just looked into this thread posted in this forum many years ago and PE said a few words about using NaBr to replenish the Bleach. That is very interesting and it seems to be simple. Well, I think the actual process of replenishing the Bleach may be not so simple. PE, could you further explain how it is done by adding NaBr to the exhausted Bleach in terms of quantity and if adjustment of PH is necessary? The other half of regeneration of the Bleach is by aerating which is easy to do I think. Here is the post:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

mtjade2007 said:

I guess Bleach Regeneration will be the most economical way to go.

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mtjade2007 said:

Well, I think the actual process of replenishing the Bleach may be not so simple.

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I think you may be misunderstanding the terms regeneration and replenishment, which are used in very specific ways by Kodak. "Replenishment" is best known to users; it is fairly simple to do, and consists of adding a small amount of replenisher for each unit of film you process. This automatically keeps all of the chemical components at their normal concentration, and it is what I would normally suggest for people to do.

"Regeneration" is the process of 1) collecting the surplus bleach due to adding extra volume of replenisher and 2) adding back the missing components to turn it from waste back into replenisher. It is not enough to just add bromide because the iron-based bleaching compound has gradually been diluted by the wet film coming into the bleach. All of the missing components are included in the commercial regeneration package.

To summarize the sequence: process film, adding replenisher according to Kodak specs. Collect the waste bleach which would normally overflow from a processing machine. When you have collected enough of the waste bleach, convert it back into replenisher by adding a commercial regenerater mix to it.

I initially mentioned bromide so that people would understand how bleach initially "fails," not to imply that this is all that is needed to keep it going. However, if one wishes to run their bleach all the way to the failure point, adding some bromide WILL extend that point. And it IS necessary to aerate the bleach along the way - in small scale processes it may be enough to simply pour the bleach in and out of the tank.

If one is interested in basic analytic techniques, I think they are described in Kodak's published H-24 documents for motion-picture processing. Iron can be determined by the "strength" of a red color (measured with a spectrophotometer) after adding a certain reagent to a treated sample. The bromide ion can be roughly measured via use of a selective-ion electrode in a pH meter while performing a titration. But all in all, it's much easier to just add a commercial regeneration package and verify that the pH and specific gravity are in the spec range. Also, expect the film's "stain level," the film base density, to increase somewhat when using regenerated bleach. BTW, my knowledge about this is from actual experience; I'm not "internet educated."

Yes, I am sure I have misunderstood something. I have several 5 liter jars of Kodak C-41 Bleach Replenisher RA. Although it is a bleach replenisher I actually use it as a working bleach. I was told by the supplier and was confirmed by a lab owner. Since I use a Jobo ATL-2300 I simply set the bleach time to 6'30". The RA bleach can bleach the film in 2 to 3 minutes I think. But I just set it to bleach time much longer to minimize the chance under bleaching. The C-41 Bleach Replenisher RA is (or was) widely used by one hour labs everywhere so it is (or was) widely available. I picked up 5 jars of it back when my local lab supplier was still in business. The supplier has long been gone but I still have it to last me for a few more years. I don't want to use it in any wasteful way so I am trying to figure out how to replenish it, or regenerate it which may be not the right way to go for me.

So after processing some number of rolls of film with this bleach it needs to be replenished or replaced. It is usually started with 1 liter of it. After processing some rolls (with aeration before each roll was processed) it would come to a point that I needed to do something about it (meaning to replenish or simply replace). To replenish it of course is a preferred way to go but the problem is it is unclear to me how this is done because my processor is a rotary processor and Kodak says to use the chemicals in one shot. The instruction of this bleach replenisher simply says to add it to the used one based on the amount of film processed. This really causes a bit of confusion to me. The bleach is a working bleach and is also a replenisher itself. I think there is something that won't pass the basic math. I don't think this is really replenishing (by adding some fresh juice to the old one). If it is a replenisher why is it used as a working solution to begin with?

If some amount of Bromide and Iron compound is lost each time from bleaching a roll of film the lost compound needs to be added back by replenishing, or is it called regeneration? The way I did by adding fresh bleach into the used one is not going to work for too long because the lost compound will keep adding up to a point where the individual components in the juice will be far off from the correction ratio.

I guess I will need to accept the fact that the bleach I use will still be consumed at least at the rate of the consumption of the chemical compounds from bleaching the films. Since I am using the bleach itself to replenish I am not saving any money by replenishing at all.

mtjade2007 said:

Yes, I am sure I have misunderstood something. I have several 5 liter jars of Kodak C-41 Bleach Replenisher RA. Although it is a bleach replenisher I actually use it as a working bleach.

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Those 5 liter bottles of C41RA bleach require bleach starter, which has sodium acetate in it, probably for buffering.

mtjade2007 said:

The instruction of this bleach replenisher simply says to add it to the used one based on the amount of film processed. This really causes a bit of confusion to me. The bleach is a working bleach and is also a replenisher itself.

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Yes, that technique is called "replenishing."

The way that it works is that the stuff you are using on your film is supposed to be less concentrated; like sfaber says, it is ideally mixed up from replenisher plus "starter" solutions, plus (I'm presuming; I've never used the RA bleach) water. Thus, when you add some replenisher to your working tank it should raise the chemicals back up to the original working tank concentration.

Regarding Kodak's instructions to NOT use bleach replenishment with a rotary processor, I don't understand why not. In my long experience with Kodak instructions, I've nearly always found them to be reliable, and often on the "safe" side, meaning that they protect the user from problems. So I presume that they have good reason for their recommendations; I just fail to see what it could be.

sfaber17 said:

Those 5 liter bottles of C41RA bleach require bleach starter, which has sodium acetate in it, probably for buffering.

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Thank you. I should have known that. Somehow I never got that right before. The word "replenisher" as the name of this product somehow escaped from my mind. It was the owner of a minilab who told me to use it straight as a bleach. Well, it did work that way without any problems. It bleached all my films properly. But I never understood why it could be a working bleach as well as a bleach replenisher at the same time. Thanks for straighten me out. Now it is time for some home work. I will find the instruction of this replenisher and see how it should be used correctly. I guess that means I use a starter and make it a working bleach. Then replenish as per the instruction.