Switching to Kodak Flexicolor Chemistry

tron_ · May 15, 2016

Hello,

As some of you guys know I started up a small photo lab in Detroit about a year ago and have been fortunate enough to see our business grow. This means we are exploring more efficient and better chemistry for developing C-41 film (for black and white we currently use a few different developers one-shot).

So far we've been using press kits for C-41 process but are interested in the Kodak Flexicolor chemicals. All C-41 film is developed in our Jobo ATL-3 and I've been digging around online to find what chemicals would be best for us (lots of good info in this thread (there was a url link here which no longer exists)). So far it seems the Kodak Flexicolor SM chemicals are recommended for rotary tube processors such as our Jobo. Is this a reasonable assumption to make? Also what chemicals do we need to get, just the Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse? What would be the most economical quantities to get as I'm assuming this is best used as one-shot chemistry? And where are the best places to buy these chemicals (since the thread I posted above is a little older)?

Thank you in advance!

mshchem · May 16, 2016

I have been using the Kodak Flexicolor C-41 RA bleach and fixer in my Jobo CPP2. I can buy 5 L quantities (no case minimum ) from Unique in NJ also I get it from a friend that runs a minilab. The developer is standard C-41 LU. Final rinse is SM. One big advantage is bleach and fix times are reduced. The RA Bleach and fixer is what all the minilabs have gone to.
I WASH FOR 5 MINUTES AFTER FIXING. THEN FINISH WITH THE FINAL RINSE FOR 30 SECONDS, KINDA LIKE PHOTO-FLO. The bleach and the developer both require starters.

You can either mix finished fresh "tank solutions " and use one shot or replenish. I replenish, 5 L will go a long way, if you replenish. You will use twice as much developer and fixer as you do bleach, so you might want to get 10 L of developer and fixer and just 5L of bleach. The final rinse lasts a long time as long as you are washing.

Look up the Kodak Z manual for the RA Chemicals, if you adequate agitation you can bleach in as little as 1 minute. I bleach for 2 minutes minimum.

All liquids, it keeps well as long as you keep your bottles full. Much nicer and elegant than the powdered stuff.
This has been working for me, and it's available and cheaper.
Best Regards Mike

tron_ · May 16, 2016

As usual I've managed to thoroughly confuse myself so I appreciate your response. So you use the LORR developer, RA bleach, RA fixer, and SM final rinse? Also why would I use half as much bleach?

I looked at Z-131 on the Kodak website and according to it (http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z131_03.pdf), I should be using the chemistry one-shot and only reusing the bleach to batch capacity. Does your method bypass this? Also how often do you replenish as I'm assuming it is adding a certain mL of replenisher after X number of rolls?

bvy · May 16, 2016

I post this often. You say you're running a lab, but if you're processing by hand (a Jobo, you say) and your volume isn't huge, then this should work fine.

C-41 Developer Replenisher ($13.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Separate Bleach and Fix ($34.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-processing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

Final Rinse ($2.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-tank-final-rinse-1925254/

This makes ~6.5 liters of working solution developer. You'll have starter leftover for the next purchases of developer/replenisher. Use the bleach straight. Mix the fixer 1+1 with water. Let me know if you have any questions.

tron_ · May 16, 2016

bvy, thank you for the response and the detail! We are processing in a Jobo ATL-3 versus a semi-automated CPE/CPA/etc. But still we are doing about 20 rolls of C-41 a week at this point so drum processing is our preferred method for now.

As far as the chemicals, mixing instructions are included, correct? How about replenisher rates? The bleach, fix, and final rinse are intended to be used as one-shot correct?

tron_ · May 16, 2016

Also is there any advantage to using the LORR/replenished method over one-shot SM chemistry?

Mr Bill · May 16, 2016

tron_ said:
Also is there any advantage to using the LORR/replenished method overr one-shot SM chemistry?

If you want to have a stable process that stays within specs, a replenished system can have much lower chemical costs, proportionally, than single use. (I'm careful to say proportionally, as the savings for a handful of rolls are pretty small.)

The downside is the extra "overhead" that comes with it. You need to watch the developer "activity" with control strips, and that sort of thing. At some point, volume-wise, replenishment becomes economically worthwhile, but otherwise you don't want to spend more, labor-wise, than you save on the chemicals.

If you're doing this commercially, where you need to meet regulatory limits of a sewer permit and treat certain "wastes," a replenished system drastically reduces "effluent loading."

My experience comes from a large outfit where we ran literally thousands of gallons of replenishers every day. There is no question that savings are tremendously worthwhile in this situation.

If you want to estimate your own possible chemical savings, you can look in the other (non-rotary processors) Z manuals for replenishment rates, then compare that usage to single use.

sfaber17 · May 16, 2016

I agree with mshchem. The process I use and verified with control strips on an ATL is: 37.8 deg C, 30 sec from chem 1 (water), and 30sec from chem2 (water), 3:15 chem3 developer, 1:00 chem 5 C41RA bleach, 2:00 chem6 C41RA fixer, 2:00 wash. The initial water baths bring the tank up to temp. Everything is one-shot use except for the bleach, which you re-use once. That is why you need half the bleach.

mshchem · May 16, 2016

I agree with all this good advice. The replenishment rate on the bleach is less than half the volume of the fixer and developer. So 5 L of bleach goes a lot farther. You are in a perfect spot volume wise for replenishing, you can make a 1 L "tank" or whatever suits your needs. If you have 20 rolls of volume a week you can just keep replenishing with fresh replenisher. The stuff in the cartridge for bleach and fixer is the same as the 5 liter bottles, so you won't have so much excess bleach. Look at Z-100, it details steps for a minilab, shows replenishment rates. AGAIN I WASH AFTER FIXER, just like the old days. And don't use the final rinse for a washless process.
Dev. 3min 15 sec
Bleach 2min to 2 1/2 minutes
Rinse with water, (I don't like brown colored fixer)
Fixer 5 minutes, single bath. This is probably longer than needed.
Wash 5 minutes, or 10 exchanges with the lift
Final rinse off the machine, I leave the film on the reels, I don't like scratched film.
EVERYTHING AT 100 F start to finish.
I usually use more solution than is called for by Jobo, i.e. I used 500ml for two rolls of 120 in a 1540 tank, one film per reel. This makes me feel that it's more consistent, not sure it makes any difference, but I like having capacity and thermal mass.
Look at the Z-100 manual , you only need 1 developer bath, 1 bleach, and 1 fixer, then wash . You eliminate 1 fix tank , 3 final rinse tanks, wash nicely then, plunge your super clean film into a virgin final rinse.
Works for me, and is affordable quality chemistry.
Best Regards Mike.

mshchem · May 16, 2016

bvy said:
I post this often. You say you're running a lab, but if you're processing by hand (a Jobo, you say) and your volume isn't huge, then this should work fine.

C-41 Developer Replenisher ($13.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/c-41-dev-repl-lorr-tm-5l-ek-kodak-xhaz-hazsp1-832-0608-8231672/

C-41 Developer Starter ($13.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/

Separate Bleach and Fix ($34.00)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-processing-unit-f2-for-color-negative-film-1173319/

Final Rinse ($2.95)
http://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-flexicolor-sm-c-41sm-tank-final-rinse-1925254/

This makes ~6.5 liters of working solution developer. You'll have starter leftover for the next purchases of developer/replenisher. Use the bleach straight. Mix the fixer 1+1 with water. Let me know if you have any questions.

Excellent advice on the bleach and fixer cartridge I have enough bleach to last to the next decade. This is great advice!

mshchem · May 16, 2016

FORGOT TO MENTION, I ALWAYS PRE-RINSE 2 OR 3 TIMES TO WARM UP THE TANK AND LOOK AT THE PINK STUFF THAT WASHES OFF THE EKTAR.

tron_ · May 17, 2016

Thank you to all again for the replies, you guys have no idea how much I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I think I'm beginning to wrap my head around this, here is my plan of attack (from the info in this thread). Please let me know if this is a sensible approach...

Developer:
-Purchase the 1.2L LORR Developer Starter bvy posted. Mix this per instructions from Kodak
-Replenish using the 5L LORR Developer Replenisher bvy posted per guidance I can find from the Z-100 manual

Bleach:
-Purchase the SM bleach and fixer combo bvy posted. Use the bleach undiluted (bleach can be reused once).

Fixer:
-Purchase the SM bleach and fixer combo bvy posted. Use the fixer diluted 1+1 with water (fixer is used as one-shot).

Final Rinse:
-Purchase the SM final rinse bvy posted. Mix per instructions from Kodak (this is reusable? do i even need this step as i can just wash the film with water?)

As far as developing in my ATL-3 I have this program in mind (based on mshchem's and sfaber17's posts)

37.8C Jobo ATL-3
Chemical 1: Water (30 seconds)
No Rinse
Chemical 2: Water (30 seconds)
No Rinse
Chemical 3: Developer (3:15)
Chemical 4: Bleach (1:00)
Rinse (1:00)
Chemical 5: Fixer (5:00)
Final Rinse (5:00)

Also I would like to mention I usually use a Jobo 2593 tank (2553+2560 extension tube) or a Jobo 2583 (2523+2560 extension tube) to process C-41 film. This requires 1500mL and 1250mL of chemistry (respectively) at a time with each tank holding 8-12 films. Will this cause any issues with the above scheme?

tron_ · May 17, 2016

Also on average we receive about 20 rolls of C-41 (which is all developed on Wednesdays). Some weeks we might only have 10 rolls. Just wanted to be clear on this so we can be sure replenishment is my best option!

Mr Bill · May 17, 2016

tron_ said:
Please let me know if this is a sensible approach...

Developer:
-Purchase the 1.2L LORR Developer Starter bvy posted. Mix this per instructions from Kodak
-Replenish using the 5L LORR Developer Replenisher bvy posted per guidance I can find from the Z-100 manual

Sorry to say, I don't think you'll be able to do this with a Jobo processor - the aeration will most likely kill the developer in short order. Although I haven't tried replenishing in a rotary processor, it's contrary to what the Z manual says. These color developers necessarily operate with low amounts of "preservatives;" twirling in a tank which is mostly full of air has got to be using them up in short order. I think that if you want to try replenishing a color developer you should get a different processing method.

Lionel1972 · May 17, 2016

I use 5L Tetenal Colortec C41 kits with my Jobo ATL2200 for my home-based lab here in France. Superb quality, no control strip needed, can do 60 rolls within 3 months per kit. Only problem is that recently I'm having a hard time finding these 5L kits available online, it seems that they have switched to 2.5L kits only. They had killed the 1L kits a while ago. I'm getting nervous for the future of home-based C41. I'm so happy with the ease of use and quality of the Tetenal kits I don't feel like switching to something else. Anyone has heard something about the production of the 5L kits ?

sfaber17 · May 17, 2016

tron_ said:
As far as developing in my ATL-3 I have this program in mind (based on mshchem's and sfaber17's posts)

37.8C Jobo ATL-3
Chemical 1: Water (30 seconds)
No Rinse
Chemical 2: Water (30 seconds)
No Rinse
Chemical 3: Developer (3:15)
Chemical 4: Bleach (1:00)
Rinse (1:00)
Chemical 5: Fixer (5:00)
Final Rinse (5:00)

Also I would like to mention I usually use a Jobo 2593 tank (2553+2560 extension tube) or a Jobo 2583 (2523+2560 extension tube) to process C-41 film. This requires 1500mL and 1250mL of chemistry (respectively) at a time with each tank holding 8-12 films. Will this cause any issues with the above scheme?

The times above are not right. Remember that the C41RA bleach and fixer are different than the C41 versions. I'm not sure if you ended up using an RA bleach. I think the bleach and fix times are around 6:30 and final wash time is 5-6 min with non-RA. Plus you should probably add a stop bath if not using C41RA. If you use C41RA you can use the fast times I mention. The chemicals are a bit more expensive, but you don't have to use a stop bath since the bleach is pH 4.6.
Another thing to try is to run the process with water and interrupt it in the middle of the dev. cycle and measure the temperature of the water in the tank. That way you can see if the pre-rinses are doing the job or if you still have some temperature drop. If you still have drop, you can extend development time maybe 10 seconds for a degree.

bvy · May 17, 2016

tron_ said:
Bleach:
-Purchase the SM bleach and fixer combo bvy posted. Use the bleach undiluted (bleach can be reused once).

Fixer:
-Purchase the SM bleach and fixer combo bvy posted. Use the fixer diluted 1+1 with water (fixer is used as one-shot).

Final Rinse:
-Purchase the SM final rinse bvy posted. Mix per instructions from Kodak (this is reusable? do i even need this step as i can just wash the film with water?)

Fixer and especially bleach can be reused multiple times. I've put several dozen rolls through the same liter of bleach. You should periodically aerate the bleach (i.e. shake it up) and do a clearing test with your fixer.

You absolutely need the final rinse for image stability and to aid in drying. It is reusable, but should be replaced when it changes color or gets cloudy.

bvy · May 17, 2016

sfaber17 said:
The times above are not right. Remember that the C41RA bleach and fixer are different than the C41 versions. I'm not sure if you ended up using an RA bleach. I think the bleach and fix times are around 6:30 and final wash time is 5-6 min with non-RA. Plus you should probably add a stop bath if not using C41RA. If you use C41RA you can use the fast times I mention. The chemicals are a bit more expensive, but you don't have to use a stop bath since the bleach is pH 4.6.
Another thing to try is to run the process with water and interrupt it in the middle of the dev. cycle and measure the temperature of the water in the tank. That way you can see if the pre-rinses are doing the job or if you still have some temperature drop. If you still have drop, you can extend development time maybe 10 seconds for a degree.

The one minute bleach time for the F2 unit is correct, though I've never been comfortable with that and let it go for three minutes. I fix for six minutes.

I believe all final rinse products from Kodak are the same. I soak mine for 90 seconds with some gentle agitation initially.

sfaber17 · May 17, 2016

OK, got it. I didn't realize those SM units were the C41RA, but after looking at the MSDS sheets, I agree they are the same. The bleach is the Ferric Ammonium PDTA and the fixer has Ammonium Thiocyanate.

RPC · May 17, 2016

Lionel1972 said:
I'm getting nervous for the future of home-based C41.

No need to be. One can always mix chemistry from formulas using scratch chemicals. I and others do so with success. A little more of a hastle, but better than nothing.

mshchem · May 17, 2016

Mr Bill said:
Sorry to say, I don't think you'll be able to do this with a Jobo processor - the aeration will most likely kill the developer in short order. Although I haven't tried replenishing in a rotary processor, it's contrary to what the Z manual says. These color developers necessarily operate with low amounts of "preservatives;" twirling in a tank which is mostly full of air has got to be using them up in short order. I think that if you want to try replenishing a color developer you should get a different processing method.

I certainly agree that oxygen is bad news for developer, real bad news. This is part of the reason I did without a Jobo processor for 30 + years. I am successfully replenishing C-41 using a Jobo CPP2.
Here's my thoughts.
First of all its only 3 minutes and 15 seconds.
Secondly, and this is all important, every other second of the day it is in a full 1 Liter bottle.
Third I mix the developer replenisher and bottle into pre- measured absolutely full small bottles. So when I dose the 1L bottle the replenisher is pristine.
Fourth I don't try to keep the replenished developer very long, I have found 3 to 4 weeks acceptable.
Five this developer is cheap, if you want to use as 1 shot, it's not any more expensive than XTOL.
The RA bleach is practically immortal, I add a few ml , it's like 10cc per roll, and it thrives on oxygen.
I do worry about the aeration of the developer. Probably next go around I will use the developer 1 shot, and replenish the bleach and fixer. Developer is so cheap.
I only use the final rinse for stability and as a wetting agent, 60 to 90 seconds after a through wash.Off the machine.
Best Regards Mike

Mr Bill · May 18, 2016

mshchem said:
I am successfully replenishing C-41 using a Jobo CPP2.
Here's my thoughts.

Mike, thanks for your input on this. Having considerable experience with the C-41/RA-4 film/paper processes I was pretty skeptical this could be done beyond a batch or two. At least without drastically boosting the replenishment rate.

I started out to make some estimates of how much damage the air in the Jobo tank could do, and how much replenisher would be needed to counteract this, but . . . I found that the replenishment rate for a sink line (the 3rd section of the Z manual) is nearly 3 times higher than for continuous processors!! (And, as I suggested earlier, Kodak says to do single use, only, for a rotary processor.)

Now that I see the drastically higher replenisher rates (~3x) I'm not going to make the effort of calculated estimates; these high rates explain a lot.

When I made my statement that replenished systems are drastically cheaper, I was going by my experience with larger machines where, for example, a roll of 120 Portra 160 uses 9.4 ml of LORR replenisher (Z131_03, table 3-2). Whereas the sink line/rotary document calls for 25.4 ml replenisher (Z131_02, table 2-2). (But says single use only for rotary machines.) So the chemical cost savings are MUCH less on the smaller machines.

tron_ · May 18, 2016

Can anyone comment on roughly how much I would save by replenishing versus using the chemicals one-shot? Again we are processing about 20 rolls of C-41 a month using about 2500mL of chemistry per week. It seems like replenishing is worth doing but on the other hand we would hate to replace cost savings with additional time maintaining a developer/replenisher system.

sfaber17 · May 18, 2016

My thoughts are that if you try replenish the developer, you would have to run control strips if you want to ensure your client's results, and that would be expensive and time consuming. Granted you could prove out your method with control strips and then run a limited amount of replenishment without always monitoring strips, but the developer isn't expensive anyway. Maybe you could do some amount of replenishment on the bleach using the SM data as a guide. Monitoring the pH and bubbling air into it and filtering it. If you just re-use the bleach once, that would cost around $10/ liter (across all chem.) maybe a bit less with SM packs. With the further bleach replenishment you could save a few more bucks a liter I'm guessing.

bvy · May 18, 2016

Talk about using bleach just once or twice sounds like a colossal waste. Developer is cheap and if you buy in large quantities, you should be able to manage it for quarters per roll (one shot).

Switching to Kodak Flexicolor Chemistry

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