Swastikas, Symbols and Art

[Claire Senft]

Well I happen to think that the reason that nobody tried to stop Stalin is that nobody else saw their ox as being gored. Hitler started out killing his own people and had he stayed within his own borders it may be that he would have been left to do so with nothing more than handwring by others outside the country. Please do not think that I am advocating anything he chose to do except perhaps sending losers to the 36 Olympics was a nice touch demonstrating German superiority.

Even today it is difficult to get others to interfere with rulers killing their own people.

 

[copake_ham]

Those symbols have meaning. As do these....

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/nyregion/01towns.html?ref=nyregion

 

[Kino]

Lets not think TOO deeply into matters of common sense.

Feel free to be this way yourself, but include me out...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

FC,
Yes, other great butchers of history were as vile as Stalin's Empire.
But I can't rationalize censorship of their symbols, based only on the number killed. They were all evil, and should be remembered as such.
I believe I should honor the memory of those who were lost, not those who caused their deaths.
Their symbols provide me with that rememberance.
I'm able to make that distinction, and would hope others are as well.
DT

I'm not saying that we should censor any of the symbols. I think the reason why their (Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot) symbols don't resonate as deeply as the Nazi symbol does is that they A: never exported their culture of death to other countries, and B: since they were racial "others", people didn't care what they did to themselves. The Japanese flag today has as deep a resonance within Asia as the Nazi swastika does in Western cultures - a lot of people there feel as strongly about it as the folks here who responded to the photo that kicked off this controversy.

 

[davetravis]

FC,
Sounds like we're on the same page, at least on this issue.
When I fly the Confederate Battle flag at my home, right next to the American flag, invariably some neighbors stop by to ask me why?
I explain it is not meant as a racial slur against blacks, or to defend slavery.
I fly it to honor those on both sides of that conflict that saved our Union.
Some understand, some don't.
DT

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

FC,
Sounds like we're on the same page, at least on this issue.
When I fly the Confederate Battle flag at my home, right next to the American flag, invariably some neighbors stop by to ask me why?
I explain it is not meant as a racial slur against blacks, or to defend slavery.
I fly it to honor those on both sides of that conflict that saved our Union.
Some understand, some don't.
DT

Funny thing about that flag - What folks today refer to as the "Confederate Battle Flag" is only one of many - there really was no one consistent "Confederate Battle Flag". The Confederacy was so involved in the States' Rights movement that they had a hard time coming up with anything to serve as unifying national symbols.

In regards to flying the current Confederate Battle Flag, I take you at your word that you mean no ill by it, but rather you seek to respect ancestors who served in military combat. Can you see the other side of view, however, that there would be folks out there who might find it somewhere between poor taste and outright offensive to display that flag? I find it entirely within your rights to fly that flag and express yourself as you see fit. Conversely, it is well within someone else's rights to be offended by that bit of self-expression, and to inform you as such. It is also your right to listen to them or not, and make up your mind if their offense is something you care to remedy or not.

If it were me, I'd choose not to fly the flag, regardless of how I felt about the soldiers who served their country, as it would be more important to me to honor the neighbors I have today that I like and respect than to honor soldiers who chose to fight and defend in part an unrighteous way of life and who have been dead for the better part of a century and a half.

However, as I said before, different strokes for different folks, and I'll defend your right to disagree with me civilly to the utmost of my ability.

 

[blansky]

FC,
Sounds like we're on the same page, at least on this issue.
When I fly the Confederate Battle flag at my home, right next to the American flag, invariably some neighbors stop by to ask me why?
I explain it is not meant as a racial slur against blacks, or to defend slavery.
I fly it to honor those on both sides of that conflict that saved our Union.
Some understand, some don't.
DT

Dave, I'm having a hard time understanding how the soldiers on the Confederation helped save the Union. I'm well aware that the Civil War had very little to do with slavery per se, and that the North later used the slavery issue as a justification, when in reality it had to do with the concept of federal power vs states power, but I'm missing why you'd feel the need to honor the confederacy.

If the Confederacy had in fact succeeded, and left the Union, the US may have ended up much like a sort of Europe with the various "states" in control of their own destinys.

This would have probably led to a squabbling European type place and the likelyhood that they could agree on anything very remote. This in turn would have stopped the country from every being a superpower and a great nation.

So to honor the soldiers who wished to continue their way of life which included slavery, and considering the fact that after the war, the Old South continued it's racist policies well into the 1960s, and considering the fact that many blacks feel that the flag is a celebration of that way of life and and completely repugnant, I'm wondering why you feel the need to fly the flag.

Unlike the swastika that was stolen by a cult of murderous bastards, and usurped into something that it didn't stand for, the Confederate Flag was created as a symbol of the South and that way of life, which owed it's very financial existence to slavery.


Michael

 

[copake_ham]

Dave, I'm having a hard time understanding how the soldiers on the Confederation helped save the Union. I'm well aware that the Civil War had very little to do with slavery per se, and that the North later used the slavery issue as a justification, when in reality it had to do with the concept of federal power vs states power, but I'm missing why you'd feel the need to honor the confederacy.

If the Confederacy had in fact succeeded, and left the Union, the US may have ended up much like a sort or European with the various "states" in control of their own destinys.

This would have probably led to a squabbling European type place and the likelyhood that they could agree on anything very remote. This in turn would have stopped the country from every being a superpower and a great nation.

So to honor the soldiers who wished to continue their way of life which included slavery, and considering the fact that after the war, the Old South continued it's racist policies well into the 1960s, and considering the fact that many blacks feel that the flag is a celebration of that way of life and and completely repugnant, I'm wondering why you feel the need to fly the flag.


Michael

OMG, wonders will never cease. I am in total agreement with Michael on this one!

 

[John Bartley]

And question is will we let them win?

That is will we forget about original meaning and original sanskrit symbol because nazis misused it? In the name of political correctnes and sensitivnes.

If we will, we let them win.

Exactly !! If we don't take back the symbols that were perverted, then the perverts win. The best way to beat them is not to forget them, but to take back what was decent before, make it decent again by using it properly and historically accurately and make sure that we educate our descendants about what was done to our ancestors.

 

[Joe VanCleave]

I do not believe that it is necessary for the likes of me to rise to Mr. Churchill's defense. However, he was not ordering hot dogs, he was ordering bangers and sour mash.

And all this time I thought he was ordering five beers in Italy.

 

[davetravis]

FC & Michael,
Guess you're both asking the same question about the flags.
There are some on the left that question why anyone would ever fly the American flag.
On Memorial Day, and Veterans Day, I fly both.
It's a bit curious, but the blacks in my neighborhood understand more often, and are not offended as much, as the left-leaning whites.
I have ancestors from both sides of that conflict.
I suppose it's a "military thing" to show honor to warriors, but it's what I've always done.
I don't really care if a few locals are offended, they probably would find other things about me they don't like.
Such is life.
DT

 

[blansky]

FC & Michael,
Guess you're both asking the same question about the flags.
There are some on the left that question why anyone would ever fly the American flag.
On Memorial Day, and Veterans Day, I fly both.
It's a bit curious, but the blacks in my neighborhood understand more often, and are not offended as much, as the left-leaning whites.
I have ancestors from both sides of that conflict.
I suppose it's a "military thing" to show honor to warriors, but it's what I've always done.
I don't really care if a few locals are offended, they probably would find other things about me they don't like.
Such is life.
DT

Fair enough. I think if I was the type of person to be easily offended, I'd be able to understand your flying them on those military type days.

The people I tend to shake my head at are those that feel the need to fly them on the back of their pickup trucks as well as the Nazi posers who need attention by parading around with Nazi flags and sticking them into the faces of people for shock value.

That is one reason, it would be fun to take back the swastika and educate people on its original meaning, to cut the legs off those morons.

Back a few years ago gays were called queers and fags and dykes. To neutralize the terms they took them as their own and use them. We now have Queer Nation, Dykes on Bikes etc, and someone now using the term in a derogatory context is rendered rather impotent.


Michael

 

[Daniel_OB]

I think if swastika appear just anywhere today it will triger the similar extend of discusions what it represents and why it is there. Get a rug in front of your door with swastika on it. Funny to think what your neighborough will think about you (unles you invite him for a meal and drink and explain all meanings of the simbol...).
Recently I saw the symbol on one photo, and two white guys behind it. I do not know much about the photograph but I am sure that two are not Jewish.

www.Leica-R.com

 

[bruce terry]

1942. Six years old. Summer in the neighborhood between first and second grade in Rochester. Couple of big guys, maybe two, three years older than me and my younger brother. Told us we should take this pail of stones to the front steps of that house over there and make a design on the landing at the front door.

So we did. And we were very careful to get down on our knees and do it just like it showed on the paper. Artists at work.

Just as we finished laying our last stones the door swung open and a nicely-dressed lady glared down at us and our work. God, we were so naive - didn't think of just jumping up and running away. She bent forward and struck like a snake, getting each of us by one ear and levitating us into her dining room where she ordered us into chairs in opposite corners while very quietly, very distinctly saying, "Shame, shame, ...shame." Our new host rejoined her chatty tea guests in the visible living room and after about 20 minutes strolled over and took our respective little arms into the kitchen for a pail of water and a scrub brush. Fully equipped, we were marched back to the living room to own up to being sorry, then scooted out to the landing:

"You boys clean up this shameful business and go straight home and tell your mother and father what happened here ... or I will."

I still, uhhh, sixty four years later, remember every second of that encounter ... including the swastika.

My brother doesn't, but he was just a kid.

 

[Gay Larson]

"You boys clean up this shameful business and go straight home and tell your mother and father what happened here ... or I will."
but did you tell your Mother and Father???

 

[DrPablo]

As the grandson of four holocaust survivors, I think I have a unique perspective on the significance of such symbols.

At the same time, the symbolism of the swastika is merely referential -- it is abstract unto itself, and it's by association that it symbolizes Naziism. Unto itself it's just a shape. This is different than the symbolism of specific things and people -- comparing someone to Hitler or comparing something to Auschwitz is a symbolism that has a lot more inherent meaning, because those two examples are not abstract.

I think it's very sad that the swastika, which is a very holy symbol in Buddhism and Hinduism, which was used in some native American cultures, and which is a somewhat mesmerizing shape, has been so utterly corrupted by modern history.

But it's not the fault of the symbol itself -- it's the fault of the Nazi regime alone. Even without my personal pedigree, those of us who are from America, Canada, Western Europe, the former Soviet Union, and Aus/NZ have been raised in a context of collective national pride at having defeated Naziism during WWII. While there may be many modern reference points for evil and catastrophe, few are as superlative as the Nazis.

So while the swastika itself may be neutral, and it's the fault of the Nazis for creating this very strong association we have with it, at the same time we would be completely and totally naive (or idealistic) to ignore the importance of this association. I think one has to be pretty clear about the non-Nazi context and very gentle in any defense of the symbol in order to soften the reaction that many would have.



Parenthetically, if you ever go to Russia, esp. Moscow, you will see hammer and sickle images everywhere (and in St Petersburg you will see the tsarist double-headed eagle everywhere). Somehow the populist imagery of the working citizen, embodied in the hammer and sickle, was never conflated with the many evils that happened in that regime.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

"which was used in some native American cultures"

Wrong tense, should be: Is a religious symbol currently used by several native American cultures.

 

[bruce terry]

"You boys clean up this shameful business and go straight home and tell your mother and father what happened here ... or I will."
but did you tell your Mother and Father???

Gay - That part I don't remember. I think maybe I didn't and suffered mightily for it.

Bruce

 

[DrPablo]

"which was used in some native American cultures"

Wrong tense, should be: Is a religious symbol currently used by several native American cultures.

I only used past tense out of ignorance of current practice (having seen it mainly in mesoamerican ruins), but I'd certainly believe it. Which groups in particular, Tom?

 

[blansky]

As the grandson of four holocaust survivors, I think I have a unique perspective on the significance of such symbols.

At the same time, the symbolism of the swastika is merely referential -- it is abstract unto itself, and it's by association that it symbolizes Naziism. Unto itself it's just a shape. This is different than the symbolism of specific things and people -- comparing someone to Hitler or comparing something to Auschwitz is a symbolism that has a lot more inherent meaning, because those two examples are not abstract.

I think it's very sad that the swastika, which is a very holy symbol in Buddhism and Hinduism, which was used in some native American cultures, and which is a somewhat mesmerizing shape, has been so utterly corrupted by modern history.

But it's not the fault of the symbol itself -- it's the fault of the Nazi regime alone. Even without my personal pedigree, those of us who are from America, Canada, Western Europe, the former Soviet Union, and Aus/NZ have been raised in a context of collective national pride at having defeated Naziism during WWII. While there may be many modern reference points for evil and catastrophe, few are as superlative as the Nazis.

So while the swastika itself may be neutral, and it's the fault of the Nazis for creating this very strong association we have with it, at the same time we would be completely and totally naive (or idealistic) to ignore the importance of this association. I think one has to be pretty clear about the non-Nazi context and very gentle in any defense of the symbol in order to soften the reaction that many would have.



Parenthetically, if you ever go to Russia, esp. Moscow, you will see hammer and sickle images everywhere (and in St Petersburg you will see the tsarist double-headed eagle everywhere). Somehow the populist imagery of the working citizen, embodied in the hammer and sickle, was never conflated with the many evils that happened in that regime.

With all due respect I don't think your perspective is all that unique and qualifies you to a superior position on the debate.

I agree that it is a touchy subject and requires caution and gentleness in handling it but I believe the symbol should be taken back from the perversion that it became and people educated as to the real symbol that it is. As I said, then as a German/Nazi symbol of pain and death, it can be exorcised, and resurrected to it's original intent.

Michael

 

[DrPablo]

With all due respect I don't think your perspective is all that unique and qualifies you to a superior position on the debate.

With all due respect, a more careful reading of what I wrote would reveal that I never claimed a 'superior' position.

And my perspective is unique:

For my entire life I have grown up faced with many things that symbolize the Holocaust to my family.

Everything from buffets to wooden clogs to tattoos is a reminder of the concentration camps in my family. Despite the fact that I'm 32 years old and married, my mom still insists that I call her whenever I get home from somewhere, whatever time of night (and my parents were born after the war). Every single holiday, birth, wedding, graduation in my family is an openly discussed reminder of how many people in my family were killed.

These are all symbols of the Holocaust in my family. The swastika is just one of many; but believe me that in my grandparents (2 of whom are still living), there is still living horror of what happened.

Can you say this about yourself? Are you so invested in this subject that you can claim equality with my perspective? I think not.

I will stipulate that we all have unique perspectives for the simple fact that we are unique humans.

But at the same time I say with full sincerity that I care about the memory, legacy, facts, implications, symbols, and representations of the Holocaust a hell of a lot more than you do.

So no, I'm not "superior" (your word, not mine) in this debate or in any other context by virtue of my family history. But damned if you have anything that resembles my perspective on this subject.


Now, as you'll also realize if you re-read my above thread, I am fully respectful of the other uses of the swastika in other traditions. I'm not an advocate of reactionary censorship of political correctness. What I'm advocating is sensitivity, knowing that symbols can have powerful meanings even to the normal human. So it behooves us to keep in mind that even neutral depictions of inanimate things (like a crucifix) can evoke very strong feelings and emotions. Most of us recognize in advance that which might offend, so we can ask ourselves if we care about that prospect and what we should do about it.

 

[copake_ham]

With all due respect I don't think your perspective is all that unique and qualifies you to a superior position on the debate.

I agree that it is a touchy subject and requires caution and gentleness in handling it but I believe the symbol should be taken back from the perversion that it became and people educated as to the real symbol that it is. As I said, then as a German/Nazi symbol of pain and death, it can be exorcised, and resurrected to it's original intent.

Michael

Michael,

And with all due respect, I will be more supportive of your claim to have "taken back [the Swastika] from the perversion that it became..." the day after you wear it on your back and walk up and down West 47th St. in Midtown Manhattan or through Borough Park, Brooklyn.

You speak from your grape-sodden redoubt in Northern CA as if it is all a matter of simple logic. It isn't. Symbols have meanings and some stains are indelible. This is one of them.

We should all regret the day that, if it comes, you get your way and "reclaim this symbol".

 

[blansky]

With all due respect while you play your Jewish victimization card please be aware that others had equally personal adventures with the symbol. My father served 5 years of his life and wounded twice, he lost one brother and one half brother. My mother said he was never the same when he came home. My grandmother lived with us for 10 years or so and there wasn't many days she didn't remember her fallen children. My father lost a mere 45,000 of his country men while the UK lost almost 400,000, the US lost up to 400,000 and the Russians lost 10 million.

So please, I think we can agree, that the symbol may represent a lot to you but it represents a lot to everyone.

But I still would like to see it "taken back".

Michael

 

[copake_ham]

With all due respect while you play your Jewish victimization card please be aware that others had equally personal adventures with the symbol. My father served 5 years of his life and wounded twice, he lost one brother and one half brother. My mother said he was never the same when he came home. My grandmother lived with us for 10 years or so and there wasn't many days she didn't remember her fallen children. My father lost a mere 45,000 of his country men while the UK lost almost 400,000, the US lost up to 400,000 and the Russians lost 10 million.

So please, I think we can agree, that the symbol may represent a lot to you but it represents a lot to everyone.

But I still would like to see it "taken back".

Michael

Michael,

Clearly, you speak of what you do not know.

I am not Jewish - nor do I have a victimization "card" to play. I am a four plus generation American of "mixed" Catholic/Lutheran religious background and a proud agnostic!

My Dad served with the USN in the PTO during WWII. My Granddad served with the US Expeditionary Force in Europe in WWI. My nephew is a USMC lieutenant currently serving as a Ranger Helicopter pilot in Iraq.

I do not equate the atrocities of the Russians nor the Chinese with those of the Nazi Germans for a very real reason - the culture of Goethe and Beethoven should never have had to be equated with the depravity that the Nazis created!

You are an extremely amoral individual and, as such, I would never expect you to admit you are wrong or even capable of being persuaded to accept a change of mind based on the thoughts of others.

And that, sir, is a sad character flaw.

 

[Sportera]

With all due respect I don't think your perspective is all that unique and qualifies you to a superior position on the debate.

I agree that it is a touchy subject and requires caution and gentleness in handling it but I believe the symbol should be taken back from the perversion that it became and people educated as to the real symbol that it is. As I said, then as a German/Nazi symbol of pain and death, it can be exorcised, and resurrected to it's original intent.

Michael

This is lofty thinking. The Nazis have taken the swastika symbol for many years to come. WWII is THE most documented war ever, period, and for this reason I don't think you can ever "educate" the world that the swastika is not representive of the Nazi's. The symbol itslef has taken on a new cannotation, world wide when its seen, people think Nazi. There is just no denying that.

Now as to its representation here in our world as photographers, I don't think that still lives with swastikas are anything but Nazi proaganda or Nazi Porn, when the symbol is the subject, I can't abide it.

Here in the south, as already stated by others, we have the same debate about the Confederate Battle Flag. "Heritage not Hate" and all that, but I think the same rules apply here as well. Context is the key, the symbol what ever it may be has to have meaning and impart something to the photograph.