SURVEY: Edwal 12 Users' Experience

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Larry Bullis

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Yep. I really like the film and am having a good time with the testing. I'm using my office hours at school for it. Got a nice north lit wall to use for a gray card. Did a minus one (6 minute) time today, rocky results, probably because a got a phone call while processing, but possibly good enough; I doubt we're going to do a lot of compression with this fluid anyway.

Do keep us posted on your results. I'll do the same.

L.
 
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df cardwell

df cardwell

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Will do.

Lowe was clear about the purpose of the developer,
to be used in Chicago conditions !

I'm content to draw a 'barely normal' scale from a linear film.
I LOVE the look of the stuff, and because I TRY to use a single emulsion as often as I can
(TMY) E-12 is giving me a touch of that TXP palette.

Of course, +2 is what the stuff WANTS to do. With APX 100, it adds a LOT of vitality. (handy to have a flashing station in the darkroom, yessir, it is !)
No grain, though ! :munch:
 

sun of sand

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I just thought it would be fun
Too bad they don't sell stuff in such classy bottles anymore




Also
I found some Edwal 20 to try out. It has it's own liquid replenisher.
 

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sun of sand

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Just reading through stuff on the net and happened upon a catalog for Wards 1938 mentioning the new developer Defender 777 "..took 7 years of development to come up with it" so maybe the recipe isn't as easy as 7 of this 7 of that and 7 of the other
 
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df cardwell

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Edwal 20
Edwal advised using normal EI for 35mm, and half the normal EI for 120 & sheets; the negatives will look thin to the eye but there may be a yellow-brown stain (like Pyro) that will add printing density. PM me and remind me to post the Edwal data if you need it.
 

Larry Bullis

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According to a post by Gerald Koch (September, 2003):

"Gradol is the hemisulfate of p-aminophenol C6H7NO.1/2H2SO4 and has a molecular weight of 158.14. You can substitute p-aminophenol hydrochloride for the Gradol, use 0.9X of the amount called for. No need to make any other adjustments. Do not add sulfuric acid or any other sulfate to the developer."

Here's from Photographer's Formulary:

"p-Aminophenol Hydrochloride - 100 grams
May require a Hazard charge.
Unable to ship internationally or to Canada.

Model Number:
10-0060-2

Unit Price:
12.9500 USD - Dollars
Weight: 0.23 lbs"
 

Paul Howell

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According to a post by Gerald Koch (September, 2003):

"Gradol is the hemisulfate of p-aminophenol C6H7NO.1/2H2SO4 and has a molecular weight of 158.14.

Does p-aminophenol leave a stain? I dont recall seeing a stain when I used Rodinal. When I get home I will look for negatives from the 60s that were developed in E20 to see if I can a stain. From what I recall the negatives are on the thin side but print well.
 
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df cardwell

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Does p-aminophenol leave a stain?

I was summarizing the Edwal literature when I mentioned stain,
and I flipped back to the formula, saw what was in it and scratched my head.

The great thing about being clueless
is that I'm easily entertained. Can't wait to hear what Sun finds.
 
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df cardwell

df cardwell

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I wonder if it might be the ...sulfate. You know, sepia toner is sodium sulfate.

I'm looking forward to the results also.

Yeah, what's he doing ? C'mon, show us !
 

sun of sand

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If you have a page on Super 20 that would be great. I have some sheets I shot on Sunday needing to be developed so I can pick out a couple to try in the E20 ..Exposure times should be OK for E20.
Maybe tonight.

I don't know what stain really looks like but if it's brownish tint I guess I can't really miss it

I also have some lol pounds! of Pot Thiocyanate so if you have info regarding its use with E20 I can maybe try that out, too.
 
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df cardwell

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Edwal 20 info from "Modern Developing Methods", Edwal Labs, 1944

Gotta get a new scanner.
 

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sun of sand

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Thank you
going to go down into the dungeon in a minute or two


If not too much problem could you scan the section on E32 ..Minicol
Seems like could be a really neat uhhhh "compensating" developer
 

Larry Bullis

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Back To E12/XX for a brief update.

I ran a test at 6 min. with the XX and had noticed a different shape to the curve. Today I printed the patches and was surprised to see what resulted, until I remembered that curve. There seems to be a slight reduction in the densities of the lowest zones (diminished speed), then the straight line portion parallels the 7.5 minute with the Same Slope and the shoulder droops considerably! Visual inspection of the zone patches printed gives the same information. The values of zones 5 and 6 are diminished but not quite out of their ranges, and from 7 on up through 10 there is a subtle gradation finally reaching pure white at zone 11. Holy Cow!

I find this very interesting, and it obviously demands a retest to verify. The implications of this, if it is really true, suggest that in some circumstances, notably nighttime, E12 could actually be quite useful in contraction, because although there is a slight loss in speed, the persistence of contrast in the lower to mid values is something that really gets missed when short timing night/performance images. The drop in the shoulder would prevent those awful burned out whites. Of course, this requires the opposite of the normal mindset; "pull" instead of the usual "push". That's what I do anyway; I turn to staining surface development. This seems to add another tool.

I've found it to be true in the past that the apparent limitations of a technique often prove advantageous in strange and surprising ways. This seems somewhat similar to printing Windisch pyrocat negatives (heavy yellow-brown stain increasing proportionally to the silver density) using VC filters; the proportional stain produces progressively lower contrast in the highlights since it acts as a progressive soft filter. This makes it possible to get great separation in the shadows/midtones with sometimes difficulty getting the whites to be really white even in light sources! Useful, but not for everything.

I processed a roll I shot under overcast light over the weekend, processed at 7.5 minutes. These are extraordinarily beautiful negatives. Very clear, appear a bit thinner than I am accustomed to when all is well, but I know they're going to print not just "jes' fine" but a great deal better. Breathtaking negatives, actually. Through a glass, fantastic.

By the way, I've settled on a working ISO of this film/dev combo of 160, with a normal time tentatively set at 7.5 minutes. The numbers check out great, with zone 6 at about .97, but how's it going to look in real images? Anyway, I'm so close, I have no doubts about using it now.

One of these days, I'll actually have some pics. All this testing. I'm glad I enjoy it.
 
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df cardwell

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Bowz

Cool. How does the curve resemble Kodak's ?

It seems E12 is one of those developers that reinforces
the film's signature: TMY becomes bolder, APX 100 dazzling.

Really interesting.

don
 

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sun of sand

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I was distracted by Lorenzos Oil for a couple hours but am now going to go develop some film in Lawrences Oil AKA Super 20


I checked out the labels on the E20 bottles and they're different in times
One -the older, I presume, gives times of 44 and 37 minutes at 65 and 70 degrees respectively for class VII films (that years SHEET Tri-X)

The "newer" bottle gives times of 37 and 31 minutes at 65 and 70 degrees for same class film
The label does have additional info such as the average contrast -gamma- given would be .7

Also states that with such fine-grained films as panatomic-X the E20 should be diluted 1:1
I guess for better sharpness


No mention of these things on the presumably older bottle


Emulsion changes? Developer changes? Contrast changes? Agitation changes?


I'm developing clips for 15/23/32/42 minutes
hopefully get something
 

Larry Bullis

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I think I took it farther out than they do except in the normal (7.5 min) where I ran out of film at the end of the roll. That one does, actually, look pretty similar, terminating, as theirs does, at about d 1.5. The 6 and 10 minute curves, where I trudged on up to zone 11, there is considerably more shouldering. Leads me to suspect that another interesting application might be white subjects on white. Have to do my old egg with axis light trick with it. Hmmmm.

One thing that their curve and mine conspicuously share is that nice graceful toe. I love shadow values; I'm gonna love this.

Larry

OOPS I should have mentioned, this is about kodak's curves.
 
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sun of sand

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I skipped ahead and just did a strip at 25 minutes
Developer was probably in the 73-79 degree range after sitting in the hot house

It looks pretty good
Not real thin and not too dense -says should aim for a thin-looking image but whatever

Regarding stain
There is a stain in the darker regions of the negative (highlight on print)
It's yellowish with maybe some brown and maybe some green
Stain is proportional ..none really in clear areas of negative

bad news
The emulsion side is greenish
I take this as being dichroic fog

I put one end in dilute bleach and the green went away
"stain" is still there

Maybe not a problem
Maybe it is

I'll do a print tomorrow

Going to go finish off the sheet for 21 minutes and make the stop bath a little stronger
 
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df cardwell

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....this is about kodak's curves.

In my world, Ilford MG prints normally up to D 1.50 ~ D 1.8, so it's good to know what happens beyond conventional curves.

I swear I've never asked this before, ever, but how does the grain look ?
 
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df cardwell

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E-20 test


E-20 & Tri X 35mm ?

Very cool. Can't wait.
 

patrickjames

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I just tried mixing up an Edwal 20 type in these non scientific amounts-

This is for 1.5 liters so keep that in mind...and this is not in the amounts given on the internet or in the FDC by Anchell.

pinch of metaborate to preserve the P-aminophenol while mixing
10g P-aminophenol
135g SS
10g Boric Acid
15g PPD
10g Borax
10g Glycin
20g of Sodium Hydroxide (needed to be added for the Glycin to go into solution. It went into solution at 140º F, but came back out when it cooled so I added the hydroxide.)


The Borax/boric acid combo hopefully will act as a buffer since I read somewhere the developer is sensitive to Ph. I haven't really tested it fully yet. It has been really hot here so the one roll I ran after seasoning it (with 3 rolls 35mm) was a little overdeveloped at 7min @ 25º F. (APX 100). So far it looks like it holds the film speed really well. I have a bunch of film to process from a recent trip, and I will post some of the results afterwards.

If anyone has any comments on the above formula let me know. I would love to hear opinions from others.

I haven't mixed up E-12 yet, but I have always had an affinity for p-aminophenol so I thought I would try E-20 first.

Patrick

I had problems with chemical fog with this developer as it was mixed on most films, strangely enough not on APX 100. It is an interesting developer after I added some KBr to get rid of the fog. The standout quality is the grain. Oodles and oodles of it, probably due to the pH since I added the hydroxide. Here is a shot on Fortepan 400, which is a terrible film, but it shows the grain I am talking about.

pete.jpg



I am going to try E12 next.
 
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Larry Bullis

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I had problems with chemical fog with this developer as it was mixed on most films, strangely enough not on APX 100. It is an interesting developer after I added some KBr to get rid of the fog. The standout quality is the grain. Oodles and oodles of it, probably due to the pH since I added the hydroxide. Here is a shot on Fortepan 400, which is a terrible film, but it shows the grain I am talking about.

pete.jpg



I am going to try E12 next.

Whatever you did, E20 should not give this result.

I've been using E12 with Eastman XX cine film and now FP4 - with results I consider to be close to otherworldly. I'm using great optics (Leica, and my Voightlander 40mm Nokton SC), and the film is holding and revealing every bit of the the resolution and local contrast with hardly any visible grain in full frame 8x10 (roughly 6x9 inches). Spectacular.

E20 is supposed to give even finer grain, which seems to me to be a ridiculous idea fit only for people who are permanently installed in their white lab coats.

E12 is quite amazing. I'm sold.

L.
 
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df cardwell

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Hi Patrick

According to Lowe's formula,
there is no Borax, no Sodium Hydroxide,
no Boric Acid, etc.

Lowe claimed that E20 worked because of the energizing effect of PPD on Glycin and P-aminophenol. Normally these developers are used at pH 10 and higher, while PPD allowed them to fully develop film at pH 7.5 or less (see the patent information for the exact number).

I have no idea what was the contribution of the Borax / Boric Acid, although I think you were trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

As for adding the Sodium Hydroxide, I think the effect was a bit like dropping a space heater into the bath tub.

I think E12 (with 2 grams of glycin) is a more practical developer for 21st century purposes, the only drawback being that we little practical experience with Lowe's developers and form our ideology based on third-hand accounts of writers who have never used them.
 

Paul Howell

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I used E 20 in the 60s with Tri X, looks nothing like your prints, mine very fine with even gain. I dont have a scanner hooked up to my email so I cant dig any out to post, but something is very wrong.
 
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