Surge marks?

[Truzi]

This has only happened to my best friend, so at first I blamed the camera, but after looking at the negatives it appears to be surge marks. It is not on every roll, or even on every frame. Also, she always has the leather case on the camera, so I can all but rule out light-leaks.

These were developed by a drugstore Noritsu machine, not me, but I was wondering if some light could be shed on the problem. What did the lab do, or not do, to cause this?

Also, somewhere on the web (can't find it now) there was some suggestion that re-fixing (and re-stabilizing) may remove the marks. Any comments on that as well?

These examples will also show why I haven't posted any B&W pictures on APUG - I'm bad at scanning and have dust problems. The positives are minilab scans, but the negatives are mine - the dust on the neg scans are all my fault. Also, please ignore the focus problems... I'm trying to determine whether it's my best friend, or her lens (I have her camera now, but haven't had the chance to use it.)
The marks aren't easy to see on my scans, but they are much more pronounced on the negatives.










Here I altered the levels to try to accentuate the marks.

 

[Ian Grant]

Looks like poor bleaching and possibly silver left in the negatives. Re-bleaching and fixing would be a good option.

Ian

 

[DanielStone]

looks like bromide drag to me, usually linked to insufficient agitation during the development stage. I've experienced this myself when having film processed in a roller transport processor. Hand agitation(well, the way I do it), and professional dip-n-dunk processing has never given me issues.

-Dan

 

[Truzi]

What could the minilab have done to cause this? Perhaps they stopped the transport momentarily?

When I finally get set up to develop my own color, I will try rebleaching and re-fixing these negatives to see if it makes a difference.

 

[Mr Bill]

While it certainly doesn't hurt to rebleach and refix as a troubleshooting measure, I can't really see this as a processing problem.

Looking at the sample which you accentuated to show the marks, there are clearly plus-density marks associated with both edges of the sprocket holes. I don't see how anything in the process step could cause this. Developer agitation problems generally show up as a lack of development somewhere, not as plus density.

My best guess would be some sort of mechanical issue, such as severely bending the film backwards over a small-diameter roller. This would put extra stress on the film right where the plus-density marks are, and if severe enough might cause pressure sensitization on the film. If you've ever put a kink in your film while loading a reel, those half-moon pressure marks on the developed negative show what stress can do.

If there is no chance that your friend mishandled the film, perhaps it is possible to load the mini-lab processor in question with the film cassette turned the wrong way, so that the film is severely bent as it pulls around the edge? Just a wild guess.

 

[Xmas]

Change mini lab.

Try normal fix at 20C for 5 mins.

 

[Truzi]

She handled the film correctly, I was there when she loaded it.

She had it happen once at one minilab, so changed to a different one. We are now on our third, lol. I really have to stop procrastinating.

 

[Mr Bill]

She handled the film correctly, I was there when she loaded it.

She had it happen once at one minilab, so changed to a different one. We are now on our third, lol. I really have to stop procrastinating.

Truzi, are you saying this same sort of thing happened at two different mini-labs? (By "this same..." I mean where plus-density marks emanate from both the leading and trailing edge of each sprocket hole.)

Really, there should be nothing about a roller-transport processor that can cause this sort of artifact, other than a mis-load where the film gets severely bent before leaving the developer. A damaged roller would mark the film with a repeating cycle equal to the circumference of the roller; a frozen roller would leave scrape marks. Agitation should not be a problem; roller transport machines have some of the best agitation, passing between rolls essentially squeezes the layer of developer away from the film. So a mini-lab machine should not inherently be able to cause this sort of damage.

If it were me, I'd go back to the last mini-lab, show them the film, and ask if they've ever seen this sort of thing before. I've found that in the case of problems, the machine operators generally know something about it. (I've done quite a bit of process troubleshooting in my day job.)

ps; If it really happened in two different mini-labs, I wouldn't be so quick to discount something my friend is doing. Perhaps they rewind film (in the camera) in the reversed direction. Perhaps they get bored sometimes, and start twisting the the film spool (inside the cassette) in the opposite direction. I really think this is a stress issue with bending the film.