Surge Marks With JOBO Silverbase Processing

[paddycook]

I've been using a JOBO SilverBase with 1520/1540 tanks and reels to process medium format black & white with (mainly) successful results. Typically I process Tri-X in 1+25 Rodinal. Occasionally I get what appears to be development surge marks in areas of uniform tone such as the sky. I'm wondering if switching to 1+50 and a longer development time might mitigate this, and was wondering if anyone had direct experience of doing this?

 

[Neal]

Hi paddycook,

Photos of the problem and full description of the process are helpful here.

 

[paddycook]

Sure. This is a significantly underexposed test shot just to highlight the problem (see unevenness on white wall behind the plant). Not sure if this is caused by developer surge, uneven development etc.

Process:

2 x 120 films in 1540 tank
Film is Tri-X
Rotary processed using JOBO SilverBase
Rodinal 1+25 to make 500 ml developer
5:24 minutes development @23.2 centigrade
1 minute Ilfostop
6 minute fix with TF-5 fixer
10 minute wash
Photo-Flo dunk
Left to dry overnight

 

[mshchem]

In rotation mode I use 250mL of solutions not 500mL. I have one of these little machines that I use with Rodinal and XTOL no trouble.

 

[paddycook]

In rotation mode I use 250mL of solutions not 500mL. I have one of these little machines that I use with Rodinal and XTOL no trouble.

470ml is the minimum for the 1540 tank so I take it to 500 just to ensure cover

 

[mshchem]

470ml is the minimum for the 1540 tank so I take it to 500 just to ensure cover

470 is for inversion not rotation

 

[mshchem]

470ml is the minimum for the 1540 tank so I take it to 500 just to ensure cover

Oh I'm thinking of the 1520 tank sorry

 

[paddycook]

470 is for inversion not rotation

No. For the 1540 975ml is for inversion

 

[paddycook]

Oh I'm thinking of the 1520 tank sorry

Our posts crossed

 

[mshchem]

When I develop 2 120 films I use a single reel and a 1520 tank. My mistake. Of course you are using the correct volume. I've not had problems with the little Silverbase, easier than getting out my big Jobo. Not sure what is going on.
I use Adox Rodinal, same dilution as you, lately I've been using XTOL quite a lot.

 

[paddycook]

When I develop 2 120 films I use a single reel and a 1520 tank. My mistake. Of course you are using the correct volume. I've not had problems with the little Silverbase, easier than getting out my big Jobo. Not sure what is going on.
I use Adox Rodinal, same dilution as you, lately I've been using XTOL quite a lot.

Interesting. Thank you. I'll try 2 on a single reel in a 1520 and see how that goes.

Thanks for the help - it's good to know others are getting good results. And to be clear, I'm not always getting this uneven development. But it's happening enough for me to need to troubleshoot my process.

 

[pentaxuser]

. And to be clear, I'm not always getting this uneven development. But it's happening enough for me to need to troubleshoot my process.

Does that mean that exactly the same or very similar effects are arising with other developers and other films. In which case what are those films and developers

I cannot say what those marks are, assuming the marks are on the film and not just a scanning arfefact but I am unsure why a simple change of dilution would cure it. After all, the machine you are using operates the same way with each film

pentaxuser

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I'm using an old Sima roller base with a Paterson tank, no issues.
Two things to note.
I don't cheap out with the amount of developer I use; 500ml for 120 and 350 ml for 35mm, any length.
Also the Sima has an eccentric rotation which slightly lifts one end of the drum every rotation which gives a little more agitation !
I think this BTS out of the expensive Jobo set up.

 

[mshchem]

I'm using an old Sima roller base with a Paterson tank, no issues.
Two things to note.
I don't cheap out with the amount of developer I use; 500ml for 120 and 350 ml for 35mm, any length.
Also the Sima has an eccentric rotation which slightly lifts one end of the drum every rotation which gives a little more agitation !
I think this BTS out of the expensive Jobo set up.

I've used these rollers in the past with print tanks the eccentric helps to slosh things around for sure.

What I really like about this little Jobo machine is, it duplicates, perfectly, the Jobo agitation scheme that's been around for over 40 years. All the work around rotary processing used a Jobo machine. Kodak XTOL comes to mind. It's a bit of apples to apples. If people in different places are trying to optimize a procedure using one of these little gems eliminate agitation variables.

No doubt at all that there's a thousand ways to get great results without spending a lot of money.

I can leave and get a cup of coffee (or get rid of one ) when I return the little Jobo is still going.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I've used these rollers in the past with print tanks the eccentric helps to slosh things around for sure.

What I really like about this little Jobo machine is, it duplicates, perfectly, the that's been around for over 40 years. All the work around rotary processing used a Jobo machine. Kodak XTOL comes to mind. It's a bit of apples to apples. If people in different places are trying to optimize a procedure using one of these little gems eliminate agitation variables.

No doubt at all that there's a thousand ways to get great results without spending a lot of money.

I can leave and get a cup of coffee (or get rid of one ) when I return the little Jobo is still going.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

Jobo agitation scheme!!
Just what is that?
Why does it justify it's high cost?

 

[paddycook]

Does that mean that exactly the same or very similar effects are arising with other developers and other films. In which case what are those films and developers

I cannot say what those marks are, assuming the marks are on the film and not just a scanning arfefact but I am unsure why a simple change of dilution would cure it. After all, the machine you are using operates the same way with each film

pentaxuser

The only other developer I’ve used with the JOBO SilverBase process is Adox’s Silvermax with Fomapan 100, Kentmere 400, Rollei Superpan 200 and Delta 400. Didn’t see the issue with any of these films. Silvermax does tend to have a longer development times though. With Rodinal at 1+25 I’ve seen it both with TriX and Acros II, both with sub 10 minute dev times. I’ve not seen it at 1+50 dilutions.

 

[paddycook]

Jobo agitation scheme!!
Just what is that?
Why does it justify it's high cost?

With respect, I’m not interested in diverting this thread into an argument over whether JOBOs are worth the money.

 

[mshchem]

With respect, I’m not interested in diverting this thread into an argument over whether JOBOs are worth the money.

Good call.

 

[Sirius Glass]

In rotation mode I use 250mL of solutions not 500mL. I have one of these little machines that I use with Rodinal and XTOL no trouble.

I use between 250ml and 500ml in my Jobo tanks and drums on my Jobo processor. I have not had surge marks on any films developed on the Jobo processor regardless of the developer, black & white and color.

 

[paddycook]

I use between 250ml and 500ml in my Jobo tanks and drums on my Jobo processor. I have not had surge marks on any films developed on the Jobo processor regardless of the developer, black & white and color.

Out of interest, are you using the 1500 series tanks or the 2500 series?

 

[mshchem]

I've got both the 1500 and 2500 series tanks. I gravitate towards the 1500 series simply because the reels seem easier for me to load (I used Paterson reels and tanks forever, I'm used to the size). I haven't noticed any issues with either size. I have a CPP3 machine I use for color and bigger jobs, expert tanks etc. I really like the little Silverbase so quick and easy for a couple, 3 or 4 rolls of black and white.
They're expensive no doubt.

 

[250swb]

Sure. This is a significantly underexposed test shot just to highlight the problem (see unevenness on white wall behind the plant). Not sure if this is caused by developer surge, uneven development etc.

Process:

2 x 120 films in 1540 tank
Film is Tri-X
Rotary processed using JOBO SilverBase
Rodinal 1+25 to make 500 ml developer
5:24 minutes development @23.2 centigrade
1 minute Ilfostop
6 minute fix with TF-5 fixer
10 minute wash
Photo-Flo dunk
Left to dry overnight

I would drop the temperature, increase the dilution and extend the time. The negative looks like it hasn't had time to develop evenly and working at a relatively high temperature this will exaggerate unevenness in highlights. You could also try pre-wetting the film although that depends on the film. The advantage of a JOBO is when you are using longer times anyway so just let it get on with it.

 

[koraks]

@paddycook
When I ran into unevenness problems with 120 film in Jobo 1520 tanks, I introduced a pre-soak. For me, this solved the problem. It's worth a try. Fill the tank with its normal processing volume of water, at normal process temperature, and let it rotate 2-3 minutes. I never found it to be necessary with 135. Only with 120 and also 4x5 in a 2500 tank.

 

[paddycook]

I would drop the temperature, increase the dilution and extend the time. The negative looks like it hasn't had time to develop evenly and working at a relatively high temperature this will exaggerate unevenness in highlights. You could also try pre-wetting the film although that depends on the film. The advantage of a JOBO is when you are using longer times anyway so just let it get on with it.

Thank you yes this is good advice and why I think my Silvermax developments have been ok with the longer development times.