"Supermarket fixer" to go with Caffenol???

[Alan Johnson]

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fixing-in-table-salt-solution.107457/
In my test, post 21, a strong solution of table salt did not completely fix film after 24hrs in a warm place but would probably be adequate to stabilize it until complete fixation in thiosulfate at a later date

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

what about devleoping and stopping and drying (in the darkest spot you can find), rolling it up, putting it in your luggage, then fix it when you get home?

Nice idea!

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

OP: have you considered carrying a few bags of powder DF96 monobath in your checkin luggage when you travel? Apparently, the powder kit doesn't have travel regulations applicable to it.

 

[Steve Goldstein]

Thanks Raghu! I didn't know this was available in powder form, that's a potential game-changer. It's not cheap but quite reasonable given the overall costs of travel. I'll get a bag and run some tests with the films I'm likely to be able to purchase at my destinations.

OP: have you considered carrying a few bags of powder DF96 monobath in your checkin luggage when you travel? Apparently, the powder kit doesn't have travel regulations applicable to it.

 

[removed account4]

Well, if you can develop the film before you get on the plane, what about devleoping and stopping and drying (in the darkest spot you can find), rolling it up, putting it in your luggage, then fix it when you get home?

my guess is the radiation from the X-ray or CT scanner would re-expose all the film and solarize it. if it isn't light safe its not safe to any sort of light..

 

[Don_ih]

my guess is the radiation from the X-ray or CT scanner would re-expose all the film and solarize it. if it isn't light safe its not safe to any sort of light..

It won't be redeveloped - it'll just be fixed. The only thing to do is test the idea. And that's all it is - an idea.

 

[removed account4]

It won't be redeveloped - it'll just be fixed. The only thing to do is test the idea. And that's all it is - an idea.

fixer removes unexposed silver that hasn't developed so if it isn't fixed it will still be able to be exposed like any other silver on film or paper wouldn't it ?
that is what sabattier / solarization is all about, and even if it isn't re-developed it will be fogged, and I have never been able to remove fog with fixer, because it's toasted ,, might be good film use for an experimental art installation.

 

[Don_ih]

fixer removes unexposed silver that hasn't developed so if it isn't fixed it will still be able to be exposed like any other silver on film or paper wouldn't it ?
that is what sabattier / solarization is all about, and even if it isn't re-developed it will be fogged, and I have never been able to remove fog with fixer, because it's toasted ,, might be good film use for an experimental art installation.

I refixed a few rolls of film I inadequately fixed. They'd been sitting in negative sleeves for 5 five years. The undeveloped silver had darkened. But it all went away when I refixed it.

It takes a lot of light to light-print silver. The point would be to develop, stop, dry - in as low light as possible - then roll up and put in film canisters out of the light.

Sabattier is exposing to light partway through development. Solarization is when the film has been exposed to so much light, it starts to invert its exposure. Exposing unfixed film to light is just exposure and, if it's not too intense, should not have any effect that won't disappear with fixing. Of course, if you develop it, it will turn the whole film black.

I'll try it with a strip of film.There's nothing like a little experimentation.

 

[BAC1967]

I develop a lot of film in hotel rooms, I’ve also made contact prints in hotel rooms but most of my travels are in the US. I had this same question years ago so I tried salt fix and it works. You have to make a super saturated solution of salt in distilled water but it has to be iodized salt. I fixed for 48 hours agitating every few hours when I was awake. I have heard of others doing it for 24 hours. I did this about a decade ago and the negative still looks good. It’s stored in a binder in a dark cabinet. So far I haven’t had a need to do this while I was traveling since I mostly drive where I’m going. I did find a photo shop with chemistry in Honolulu where I got some Ilford fix, wasn't able to drive there.

 

[MattKing]

Well, if you can develop the film before you get on the plane, what about devleoping and stopping and drying (in the darkest spot you can find), rolling it up, putting it in your luggage, then fix it when you get home?

I'm not sure about the dried part

I wouldn't want to leave film wet for an extended period of time, that's why I'd dry it. Also, you'd need to roll it back up to store it.

Sorry, my response wasn't clear.
I should have said "I'm unsure what the best way would be to go about the drying part".

 

[Donald Qualls]

Has anyone experiemented with making fixer from onions? Perhaps not the simple "mix and fix" solution travelers might seek, but I recalled reading that onions are toxic to dogs and cats due to their thiosulfate content. This article confirms that there are two thiosulfate compounds in onions and garlic -- sodium n-propyl thiosulfate and sodium 2-propenyl thiosulfate -- at levels that cause hemolytic anemia in dogs and cats (and probably other mammals that aren't primates).

I'd be amazed if it weren't possible to convert these two compounds to sodium thiosulfate, likely by the same method used to make n-acetyl p-aminophenl (acetaminophen aka paracetamol) into p-aminophenol. What I don't know is how much thiosulfate is present in onions or garlic, or how to extract it separate it from other soluble substances. It's probably not a simple as making onion soup.

What I'd hypothesize as a starting point would be to extract the juice of onions, or boil them, finely divided, in water, add sodium or potassium hydroxide to cleave off the organic group from the thiosulfate (it seems the sodium is on the other end of the thiosulfate group, and in any case will separate in solution due to ionization). What I lack is knowledge of how then to separate the sodium thiosulfate from the organic. A hydrophobic organic solvent, perhaps, like toluene? Or perhaps the organic (propane or propene?) will simply evaporate off, being insoluble in water? Once the organic fraction is removed, it should be easy to neutralize the solution with a mild acid and evaporate the water to give a mix of sodium thiosulfate and the sodium salt of whatever acid was used.

No, probably not something you can carry out on the the warmer plate of the hotel's coffee machine (especially not the crappy little single-filter ones they have now in American corporate hotels, which don't even have a warmer), but perhaps still a little more accessible than finding a pool store and buying several kilos of chlorine reducer.

 

[MattKing]

Has anyone experiemented with making fixer from onions?

Intriguing, but also an almost guaranteed way to get you kicked out of your hotel room!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Assuming you're staying long enough to have gotten a suite with a kitchenette, just put a pot of onion soup on at the same time. Just don't cross them up...

 

[NedL]

Has anyone experiemented with making fixer from onions?

No, but I chopped up a whole bunch of shallots and soaked them ( skin and all ) in IPA for a few weeks... hoping to see some reversal like @darkroomexperimenter saw when he developed film with shallots. I wasn't able to reproduce his result.

This thread is a little discouraging. The last time I traveled overseas, I carried a lot of 120 film with me... and we saw those new scanners at the airport in San Francisco, but our carry-on luggage didn't go through them ( they made me take my camera out of the bag and an older TSA guy came over and appreciated the camera, thought it was very cool ) Now it's probably going to be difficult to avoid them, and traveling with film is going to become a lot more difficult.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

No, probably not something you can carry out on the the warmer plate of the hotel's coffee machine (especially not the crappy little single-filter ones they have now in American corporate hotels, which don't even have a warmer), but perhaps still a little more accessible than finding a pool store and buying several kilos of chlorine reducer.

It just might be simpler to carry a few packets of powder fixer (to make 1l) from Photographers Formulary if there're no air transport restrictions on them.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Next time I go to Japan, I'll have film sent to my mother-in-law's house from Bic Camera beforehand, or some other shop, then just process it at her house in caffenol. Instant coffee and vitamin C powder are an easy find there. Considering film is on the rise, hopefully I can just bring film with me, and process it when I get back, like always. The last time I brought film over and back was in 2017. My wife brought me back almost a hundred rolls of Acos 120 in 2018, with no issues at the airport.

 

[reddesert]

TSA says that if you have powder items over some weight (12 oz) that you should put them in a checked bag, because they have to be put in a separate bin for carry on screening, as for a laptop. See for ex https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/whatcanibring/items/protein-or-energy-powders (there is not a separate entry for photographic chemistry powders). I really think if you have commercially packaged powder bags of developer and fixer that do not have a hazmat symbol on them, you will be fine checking them in baggage. I don't see how one bag of monobath is going to improve on two bags of developer and fixer, other than the convenience in use.

While searching for info on this I discovered a number of pages for painters about how to deal with paints at security; airport security is a lot more paranoid about paints, since some are flammable, and painter's medium or solvents for oils are generally volatile and flammable. So there could be worse problems, one could be an oil painter.

 

[Don_ih]

What I'd hypothesize as a starting point would be to extract the juice of onions, or boil them, finely divided, in water, add sodium or potassium hydroxide to cleave off the organic group from the thiosulfate (it seems the sodium is on the other end of the thiosulfate group, and in any case will separate in solution due to ionization). What I lack is knowledge of how then to separate the sodium thiosulfate from the organic. A hydrophobic organic solvent, perhaps, like toluene? Or perhaps the organic (propane or propene?) will simply evaporate off, being insoluble in water? Once the organic fraction is removed, it should be easy to neutralize the solution with a mild acid and evaporate the water to give a mix of sodium thiosulfate and the sodium salt of whatever acid was used.

From some random online source: "The production of Na2S2O3 can also be accomplished by the boiling of aqueous NaOH (sodium hydroxide) with sulphur." Seems like you don't need the onions that much. Just gotta buy some sulfur and lye. Used to be able to buy big jars of sulfur at any drug store.

I should have said "I'm unsure what the best way would be to go about the drying part".

I have a test strip going. I took 15 identical pictures, cut the film in half, developed and stopped and completely rinsed. I hung one half to dry in the darkroom by the light of the safelight and fixed the other half. Once the unfixed half was dry, I cut that in half and roilled up one part into a film canister - I left the other part hanging in the darkroom, being exposed to incidental light and the overhead light when I'm in there. I'll fix both of those pieces in a week and see how they compare with the normally developed and fixed piece.

 

[removed account4]

You have to make a super saturated solution of salt in distilled water but it has to be iodized salt. I fixed for 48 hours agitating every few hours when I was awake. I have heard of others doing it for 24 hours. I did this about a decade ago and the negative still looks good.

excellent ! I saw your results in that thread and was hoping you were going to chime in

No, but I chopped up a whole bunch of shallots and soaked them ( skin and all ) in IPA for a few weeks... hoping to see some reversal like @darkroomexperimenter saw when he developed film with shallots. I wasn't able to reproduce his result.

Ding ding ding! Was going to .. we’ll you already did

think if you have commercially packaged powder bags

When I travelled with cyanotype chemistry I was told to have them in sealed well marked containers…. Fixer rice would be easy to seal and label even with a photo from the internet saying” hypo/ photograph fixer “. Less problematic than half processed film or stinking up a place with boiled onions and garlic.. unless the garlic onions could just be mincEd and smeared right on the film

 

[Adrian Bacon]

This evening I tried out Caffenol for the first time, developing a half-roll of 14-year-old frozen FP4+ in Caffenol (reduced carbonate version - 40g/l Sodium carbonate monohydrate, 16g/l Ascorbic acid, 40g/l disgusting cheap instant coffee) with a water stop and normal rapid fixer. The wet negatives look surprisingly good, better than I expected for this "supermarket developer". Tomorrow I'll process the other half roll in my normal Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 and make some comparison prints next week.

This got me to wondering - has anyone has ever tried making a "supermarket fixer"?

id just mail it there and/or mail it home. If you really want to process before coming home, just pack a changing bag, Paterson tank and reels, and a new unopened bag of Kodak D76 or XTOL and Kodak fixer in your luggage and check it. Powdered product in original unopened manufactured packaging is almost never an issue. If you feel that it might be, you can mail that too. Liquids have restrictions for shipping/mailing, but powders, not so much unless it’s really toxic or hazardous, or prone to causing fires, etc. just stick it in a padded flat rate priority mail mailer and mail it to the hotel you’re staying at. Drop it off at the post office on the way to the airport and when you land, tell the hotel you’re expecting a package in the next day or two. As a backup, pack a couple ziplock bags and 6x10 inch padded mailers, so if your package never shows up, you can just put your film in the ziplock bags, put them in the padded mailers, and mail it home from the local post office.

this is all standard issue stuff. There’s no need to get all complicated about it.

 

[Don_ih]

There’s no need to get all complicated about it.

It's straightforward that there are sensible ways to deal with the situation. But sensible isn't always interesting. You have to admit there would be a bit of adventure to using coffee and onions to develop your film. Anyone who would use coffee as developer has clearly left sensibility behind, anyway

 

[Maris]

There is no supermarket fixer. This was THE BIG problem in early 19th century photographic research,
The light sensitivity of silver salts was well known but even a millionaire like William Henry Fox Talbot, who could afford to search the entire world of chemistry at the time, could not find a fixer. That was until John Herschel dropped him a note that hyposulphite of soda would dissolve silver halides.
It is remarkable that the entire genesis of photography hinged on the unique discovery of this particular substance.

 

[juan]

I miss Gainer. He’d be perfect for this thread.

 

[Down Under]

(1) You're quite plainly wrong. Sorry. Look it up.

(2) Not thoughtless. Developed, completely stopped and dried but unfixed films can stand a bit of light without any significant fogging. Give it a try.

(3) So you likely wouldn't use coffee and vitamin c to develop them - neither would I. I'd just mail them home, if I was worried. If I wanted to develop them on a trip, I'd pack dry fixer. But those aren't answers to the original question, are they?

You have made some good points. Thanks for elaborating. (I numbered your comments to make my replies easier.)

(1) Respectfully, no, I'm not. I have looked it up. There is a risk, but it isn't universal. from some Asian countries, yes, probably. From most Western countries, with unexpired films, unlikely.

(2) Again respectfully, this is scientifically 'dangerous'. But then it's unlikely anyone will be trying it, so we can agree to disagree.

(3) True. I prefer to drink my coffee. Nor would I mail anything home. From many countries, the packet would most likely get there, if zapped a few times by Xray machines. From places like Indonesia or the Philippines, I would probably never see my films again. So too unpredictable (= dangerous) for me.

All this said, we have had some interesting discussions about all this. I now take back what I said about "thoughtless post". What you wrote did contribute to the ongoing discussion and was worth reading. My poor choice of words. Maybe not fully critically thought out. But not "thoughtless". My apologies to you.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

It's straightforward that there are sensible ways to deal with the situation. But sensible isn't always interesting. You have to admit there would be a bit of adventure to using coffee and onions to develop your film. Anyone who would use coffee as developer has clearly left sensibility behind, anyway

That's true, but we're talking important pictures, right? That alone is reason enough to be sensible about it. Film is shipped without issue en-masse every single day, and despite the horror stories you hear, the various mail and package delivery companies are quite reliable, and hotels? They are in fact the hospitality industry, and have every reason to make sure you get your package if you mail it to them while you're a guest. I used to do a lot of travel for work a couple decades ago and always had stuff shipped from/to destination hotels. The only time I had problems was when staying at a very low budget establishment, otherwise, as long as the package was clearly marked that it was for a guest going by your name and they were aware of it before hand, I always got my packages, and had no problems leaving packages ready to go with the front desk for carriers to pick up. This is all standard issue stuff. Do you have any idea how many business travelers need to send and receive packages when they're at a hotel? Way more than you realize.