"Supermarket fixer" to go with Caffenol???

Steve Goldstein · May 7, 2021

This evening I tried out Caffenol for the first time, developing a half-roll of 14-year-old frozen FP4+ in Caffenol (reduced carbonate version - 40g/l Sodium carbonate monohydrate, 16g/l Ascorbic acid, 40g/l disgusting cheap instant coffee) with a water stop and normal rapid fixer. The wet negatives look surprisingly good, better than I expected for this "supermarket developer". Tomorrow I'll process the other half roll in my normal Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 and make some comparison prints next week.

This got me to wondering - has anyone has ever tried making a "supermarket fixer"?

relistan · May 8, 2021

I’m not a fixer expert but have done a bit of research. Maybe a better expert will chime in. But, AFAIK there is not a good way to do that that doesn’t involve at least sodium thiosulfate. You can get that from some pool supply stores. That is regular “hypo”. Combine with ammonium chloride and you have a decent quick fixer. See the resources section for a few examples.

Murray Kelly · May 8, 2021

removed account4 · May 8, 2021

this is a great question !

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/stabilize-not-fix.137387/#post-1795200

https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/how-to-fix-a-solargraph.72/

I haven't combined the 2 but it might be something fun to experiment with
usually when I soak a retina type print I put it in washing soda and then go through the dev and fix
( sometimes it works and sometimes not so well but its fun ). .. maybe washing soda and then a long salt soak

ProfessorC1983 · May 8, 2021

In Florida where I grew up, the larger supermarkets carried pool maintenance chemicals including hypo, so you're just in the wrong part of the world for one-stop shopping.

foc · May 8, 2021

Caffenol and homemade developers are great fun but my own thinking is that I want my film fixed correctly.
Having looked and researched about making homemade fixer (where I live) it seemed easier, for me anyway, just to buy the Ilford one.
But I look forward to hearing other people's recipes and descriptions.

NedL · May 8, 2021

I think there might be a way to do "grocery store ammonia" fixer, but the catch is you'd have to make your own AgCl film. And be careful not to blow yourself up using the fixer. Probably not what OP had in mind.

Steve Goldstein · May 8, 2021

Since I'm the OP, my apologies for not giving a bit more background in my original post.

In the old days I'd bring film from home on my international travels and process it on my return. I can safely get unexposed 120 film out of the US thanks to upon-request hand-inspection, but with CT-based carry-on luggage scanners proliferating around the world getting film into some countries or home again without X-ray damage may soon be impossible. This has got me to thinking about what it would take to process film during travel, and secondarily about obtaining 120 film on arrival.

The Ilford darkroom network is useful for those places that have darkrooms, and asking here on Photrio can help in locating stores that still sell film. In fact, I've already been making inquiries in a country to which we hope to travel in late summer and have found two shops in the capital where I can purchase film upon arrival and a darkroom where I can process it before returning home. Unfortunately, there are no darkrooms currently listed in some of the places on my future-travel list and this is why I decided to experiment with Caffenol (there may also be no places to buy film, that's another problem). Also, in many parts of the world personal (or even public) swimming pools are either rare on non-existent so while they may have markets with the ingredients for Caffenol there are no stores selling pool chemicals. And this is the problem that's got me wondering about "supermarket fixer".

In the worst case I could take a pound of Sodium thiosulfate or maybe a small bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix stock (and an HDPE bottle and developing tank and reels and a small graduate and measuring spoons and...) in my luggage and hope that it doesn't get taken away in an act of security theater. I don't mind if I have to refix my film once I arrive home.

I sure wish Ron Mowrey was still with us.

gone · May 8, 2021

I was curious too, and asked the same question here some years ago (can't find the thread). The thread went on for quite a while, and initially almost everyone said what you see here.......don't take a chance w/ what might be keeper images. But toward the end of the thread, I remember a couple of people had a recipe or two, so it may be theoretically possible.

If it were me, I'd ship it through FedEx, UPS, one of those, w/ warnings not to xray, camera film inside, if necessary to xray DO NOT SHIP contact shipper, etc. Or, a private courier may go through less red tape. Stick it on a boat if possible. It takes longer, but they just throw stuff on those and sail away. There's many different levels of "security". I refuse to fly because I'm sick and tired of all this nonsense, and take the train everywhere in the US. No one ever asks for anything, not even an ID. You buy your ticket, put your bags on the train, and go. Love it.

juan · May 8, 2021

Has it ever been determined through actual testing that airport x-Ray machines fog film? All I’ve ever seen are anecdotal claims and internet rants.

gone · May 8, 2021

Yes, the new CT machines will ruin the film. Plenty of that on the web.

Steve Goldstein · May 8, 2021

As momus said, the new CT-based machines for hand luggage work in the same manner as their larger cousins that have been in service for hold luggage for quite a while now. The exposure levels are much higher than the old machines and they will damage film; this has been confirmed by both Ilford and Kodak. In the US, at least, security are required to provide hand inspection upon request, but in many countries they won't do hand inspection under any circumstances so you'll be hosed if you try to bring film through airports with the new scanners.

There are no guarantees with shippers, there's been another recent thread on Photrio about that problem.

relistan · May 8, 2021

Steve Goldstein said:
Since I'm the OP, my apologies for not giving a bit more background in my original post.

In the old days I'd bring film from home on my international travels and process it on my return. I can safely get unexposed 120 film out of the US thanks to upon-request hand-inspection, but with CT-based carry-on luggage scanners proliferating around the world getting film into some countries or home again without X-ray damage may soon be impossible. This has got me to thinking about what it would take to process film during travel, and secondarily about obtaining 120 film on arrival.

The Ilford darkroom network is useful for those places that have darkrooms, and asking here on Photrio can help in locating stores that still sell film. In fact, I've already been making inquiries in a country to which we hope to travel in late summer and have found two shops in the capital where I can purchase film upon arrival and a darkroom where I can process it before returning home. Unfortunately, there are no darkrooms currently listed in some of the places on my future-travel list and this is why I decided to experiment with Caffenol (there may also be no places to buy film, that's another problem). Also, in many parts of the world personal (or even public) swimming pools are either rare on non-existent so while they may have markets with the ingredients for Caffenol there are no stores selling pool chemicals. And this is the problem that's got me wondering about "supermarket fixer".

In the worst case I could take a pound of Sodium thiosulfate or maybe a small bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix stock (and an HDPE bottle and developing tank and reels and a small graduate and measuring spoons and...) in my luggage and hope that it doesn't get taken away in an act of security theater. I don't mind if I have to refix my film once I arrive home.

I sure wish Ron Mowrey was still with us.

Given that, I’d just get a 1L bag of powdered developer and 1L bag of powdered fixer and then you don’t have any issues traveling with them, and you don’t need to find things at your destination. Mix them up in 1L bottled water. After my film was fogged on my last trip to LA, I may do that next time.

Steve Goldstein · May 8, 2021

relistan said:
Given that, I’d just get a 1L bag of powdered developer and 1L bag of powdered fixer and then you don’t have any issues traveling with them, and you don’t need to find things at your destination. Mix them up in 1L bottled water. After my film was fogged on my last trip to LA, I may do that next time.

Actually, I'd probably do that. My main developer is Pyrocat-HD so I'd just need a couple of small bottles for the A and B concentrates, plus powdered fixer or raw Sodium thiosulfate and Ammonium chloride. But there's always the risk of things being confiscated by security so I'm looking for alternatives in case they're needed. Caffenol takes care of developing, at least.

MattKing · May 8, 2021

You probably would be better off if you had commercially labelled bags of powder with a name like Kodak or, maybe, Ilford on them. You might be lucky enough to encounter security staff where at least someone understands what they are.
Although travelling with bags of white powder isn't something I would be optimistic about.

removed account4 · May 8, 2021

Steve Goldstein said:
Since I'm the OP, my apologies for not giving a bit more background in my original post.

In the old days I'd bring film from home on my international travels and process it on my return. I can safely get unexposed 120 film out of the US thanks to upon-request hand-inspection, but with CT-based carry-on luggage scanners proliferating around the world getting film into some countries or home again without X-ray damage may soon be impossible. This has got me to thinking about what it would take to process film during travel, and secondarily about obtaining 120 film on arrival.

The Ilford darkroom network is useful for those places that have darkrooms, and asking here on Photrio can help in locating stores that still sell film. In fact, I've already been making inquiries in a country to which we hope to travel in late summer and have found two shops in the capital where I can purchase film upon arrival and a darkroom where I can process it before returning home. Unfortunately, there are no darkrooms currently listed in some of the places on my future-travel list and this is why I decided to experiment with Caffenol (there may also be no places to buy film, that's another problem). Also, in many parts of the world personal (or even public) swimming pools are either rare on non-existent so while they may have markets with the ingredients for Caffenol there are no stores selling pool chemicals. And this is the problem that's got me wondering about "supermarket fixer".

In the worst case I could take a pound of Sodium thiosulfate or maybe a small bottle of Ilford Rapid Fix stock (and an HDPE bottle and developing tank and reels and a small graduate and measuring spoons and...) in my luggage and hope that it doesn't get taken away in an act of security theater. I don't mind if I have to refix my film once I arrive home.

I sure wish Ron Mowrey was still with us.

hey Steve

here's another thread where both Ron and Gerald chime in
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/crazy-idea-developing-film-in-the-wild.139328/#post-1820179

years ago I developed all my film at my inlaws in France.. it was sheet film that I processed. I got "el gringo" instant coffee at the local grocery store ( the best instant I have ever used ) and since I didn't know the trick of drying out baking soda I spent a ton of $$ on carbonate and Vit c at the local pharmacy who was happy to sell it to me... I searched for 3 days for shock treatment (fixer) found in pool and spa places but nothing they had had thiosulfate in it. I ended up getting Ilford fixer in a camera store (!) ... if that is not an option. you can stabilize your film for 48 hours in a round cylinder of salt in a gallon of water until you get home it seems to do the trick if you want to trust it. personally I'd just bring thiosulfate powder and label it and tape it shut and put it in your camera bag so if you are stopped for some random white chemical in your bag you can say its fixer show your FILM and FILM CAMERA clearly labeled FIXER and maybe the recipe that says " x grams add water" so they have a clue in airport security .. not sure if that will help because some airport people don't even know what film is ...
you might do a test before you go. with your favorite film and caffenol and salt water to see how well it works before you submit the seconds you stole from the river of time to such a beating overseas... and remember some salts have stuff in there like sea salt vs other stuff.. also try double bathing it 1/2 the time in 1 bath and 1/2 the time a 2nd bath.. just also remember that Talbot's experiments with salt didn't really work well salt re-energized the silver, it was hershel who solved the puzzle ( with sodium hypo sulfate )...
good luck !

Bazza D · May 8, 2021

I have some x-ray film bags. Lead lined I suppose. How do they work against the CT luggage scans? What about mailing the film? Would it get the same scan if sent internationally?

relistan · May 8, 2021

MattKing said:
You probably would be better off if you had commercially labelled bags of powder with a name like Kodak or, maybe, Ilford on them. You might be lucky enough to encounter security staff where at least someone understands what they are.
Although travelling with bags of white powder isn't something I would be optimistic about.

I've bought packaged (powder) stuff in person at Freestyle in LA and brought it back to Ireland a few times without issue. Just put the chems in checked luggage and never even found one of those TSA inspection cards in my bag. Randomly packaged bags of white powder, though... not a good look

Don_ih · May 8, 2021

Well, if you can develop the film before you get on the plane, what about devleoping and stopping and drying (in the darkest spot you can find), rolling it up, putting it in your luggage, then fix it when you get home?

Craig75 · May 8, 2021

probably less hassle just to take a bag of something like this

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/adox-adofix-p-universal-fixer-1-litres/p5696

Down Under · May 8, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Well, if you can develop the film before you get on the plane, what about devleoping and stopping and drying (in the darkest spot you can find), rolling it up, putting it in your luggage, then fix it when you get home?

Golly! This truly wins the cake for critically thoughtless post of 2021. A sure recipe for disaster in the making...

The devils of bad luck will ensure the packet with the unfixed films will be THE one customs officers insist on opening, that is if it has survived the trip from your hotel, which is probably won't. Back home you will then find the films have stuck to the packing. End of story and of your images.

My images are too valuable to me to play such silly games with films. In 50+ years of overseas travel I have NEVER even considered processing my own films on the run. In the good old days you could always find a small photo shop anywhere in Asia (usually run by an old Chinese who had learned his craft with ancient plate cameras often as not still in use for studio portraits). In one such situation (in rural Thailand in the '70s) I had 12 rolls of 120 Tri-X processed in, as I later learned, full strength Kodak Dektol developer. All my negatives turned out fine and can still be printed to this day.

In 2014 or 2015 I did take a Rondinax tank and two small packets of dry B&W film chemistry with me to Malaysia. Customs gave me quite a difficult time but as everything was clearly marked they eventually let me through with my stash. Once settled in (I went to Ipoh) I realised the logistics of processing films in my B&B room were just too difficult. I sold the Rondinax to a friend and gave away the chemicals. My C41 films went to a small lab in Penang for processing and I brought my B&W home with me. No problems at all with Xrays.

Keep your films intact and have them developed back home. One or two passes in an airport X-ray machine will most likely not do your precious images any damage.

reddesert · May 8, 2021

I would just mail the film home if it can't be developed on location. I'm not sure that I've seen any first-hand reports of film being damaged in package shipping, as opposed to people speculating that it might happen. If there are such reports, can someone provide a link? Whatever screening they do to commercial shipments is likely to be different from the new airport scanners.

If I wanted to take chemicals with me, I would put commercially labeled bags of powdered developer and fixer (not liquid, for many reasons) in my checked bag. I doubt this would attract any attention.

Don_ih · May 8, 2021

ozmoose said:
One or two passes in an airport X-ray machine will most likely not do your precious images any damage.

You're quite plainly wrong. Sorry. Look it up.

ozmoose said:
This truly wins the cake for critically thoughtless post of 2021

Not thoughtless. Developed, completely stopped and dried but unfixed films can stand a bit of light without any significant fogging. Give it a try.

ozmoose said:
My images are too valuable to me to play such silly games with films.

So you likely wouldn't use coffee and vitamin c to develop them - neither would I. I'd just mail them home, if I was worried. If I wanted to develop them on a trip, I'd pack dry fixer. But those aren't answers to the original question, are they?

MattKing · May 9, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Developed, completely stopped and dried but unfixed films can stand a bit of light without any significant fogging. Give it a try.

I'm not sure about the dried part, but Phil Davis would probably have agreed with you!
Unless there is a reducing agent (developer) left in or subsequently added to the film, any silver halides that were not originally developed into an image will be removed by the fixer, whether or not they were subsequently exposed to light. The trick is to neutralize/remove all the developer by using a very thorough stop.

Don_ih · May 9, 2021

MattKing said:
I'm not sure about the dried part,

I wouldn't want to leave film wet for an extended period of time, that's why I'd dry it. Also, you'd need to roll it back up to store it.

"Supermarket fixer" to go with Caffenol???

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"Supermarket fixer" to go with Caffenol???

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