Super Ikonta B (532/16) - 2 questions

[cptrios]

Hi all,

My previous folder, a Super Fujica 6, died an untimely death. I've tried a few more folders since then, and each has made me appreciate the Fujica more in terms of ease-of use. Finally, I saw a great local deal on a much-vaunted 532/16, and despite some wear and tear it mostly seems in order. At least more than in order enough to merit the price. There are two issues that I'd love to pick some brains about, though:

1. The body shutter button works fine, but it doesn't pop back up after being pressed. I've got to either pull the shutter button up or push back the paddle that fires the trigger on the lens itself. Not the end of the world, but I can't imagine it's normal! Does anyone know if this is an issue that might be solved with some lube, or if it's perhaps something slightly more nefarious?

2. The winding knob is slightly off-kilter, as you can see here:

Interestingly, the winding mechanism only really works properly if one of the flip-up tabs on the knob is raised. This tab will put a little bit of pressure on the disk beneath it, which seems to engage it with the rest of the mechanism. The other tab won't, and while the film will wind when you turn it with that one, the counter/shutter release won't work. Again, the camera still functions, but I'd like to remedy this. I'd like to at least make the knob look straight in case I want to try selling this thing someday!

Thanks in advance!

 

[gone]

I'd initially try putting a very small drop of a light oil on the shutter button shaft. There's also usually a spring for the shutter release on most folders. It's not on the release button (although it could be), but normally it's on the lever mechanism below. Sometimes things get a tiny bit bent, it doesn't take much.

When you pull the wind knob all the way up, can you see what's actually bent? That might give you a clue. It sounds like it needs to be popped out and carefully examined.

FWIW, I never got on w/ mine. It felt big and heavy compared to my previous Super Ikonta III/IV, which seemed considerably smaller and lighter. No strap lugs though, that always bugged me.

 

[cptrios]

I'd initially try putting a very small drop of a light oil on the shutter button shaft. There's also usually a spring for the shutter release on most folders. It's not on the release button (although it could be), but normally it's on the lever mechanism below. Sometimes things get a tiny bit bent, it doesn't take much.

When you pull the wind knob all the way up, can you see what's actually bent? That might give you a clue. It sounds like it needs to be popped out and carefully examined.

FWIW, I never got on w/ mine. It felt big and heavy compared to my previous Super Ikonta III/IV, which seemed considerably smaller and lighter. No strap lugs though, that always bugged me.

I'm thinking of unscrewing the wind knob and seeing what I see, but it's bordering on "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" territory.

Also, I was actually going for a 531/16 until this copy popped up at less than half the price of typical eBay 531/16s. It definitely is on the heavy side, but the f/2.8 lens is kind of nice to have psychologically. Results have been decent so far, too.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Loosen the shutter knob a bit and see if it rotates and something falls into position. It should be flat. I seem to remember a planetary gear inside the knob under the cover. The hoops Zeiss jumped through to stay clear of other companies' patents led to some strange strange devices.

The shutter release is, as momus poionted out, a series of places for things to get dirty and bind up. A little solvent, a little light oil. Follow the linkages. Small drop or two of solvent then oil around the outside of the shutter button where it goes into the top cover. Nothing to hurt there, but go light.

 

[Alex Varas]

I have dealt with 530/16 and 532/16 more than twice, all I can say about the winding is that once it has been abused it difficult to put it to work as it should without any tricks as you describe.
Silly question from my side... have you read how to operate the camera winding? Zeiss is a pain about the how-to and only the way they describe works.
IIRC once you wind till you have frame #1 on the ruby window, you have to press the counter dial and turn it CW till #1 clicks, from there, the knob should stay put until you release the shutter button unlocking the winding till frame #2 is reached and so on...

 

[takilmaboxer]

Be careful with the winding. The internal mechanism includes little gears that once damaged prevent accurate winding.

 

[Dan Daniel]

OK, I was just inside one of these today. There is the top part, with the levers. On the center part of this, on the bottom, is a small tab. It is a 'tube' with a tab on the wall of the tube. You can unscrew this part and pull up only the top part with the wind tabs that flip up. Turn it over and you will see the tab. And then looking at the camera body, you will see a slot where that tab should be engaged. Looks to me as if your tab is not in the slot.

Sorry, no photos. And sloppy description. Remove wind knob. Locate projecting tab on bottom center. It is in line with the axles for the flip levers. Reinstall with tab in slot on the body.

DO NOT play with things, ok? Right below this wind knob is a dress piece, then a major gear with a planetary gear that connects to two different other gear systems and it is a mess. Just stay out. If what I describe doesn't work, well, oops, sorry, no idea. But I do have an idea of what it means to rebuild this wind system- that's why I had the wind knob off- and it is not fun.

 

[fpd2]

Interestingly, the winding mechanism only really works properly if one of the flip-up tabs on the knob is raised. This tab will put a little bit of pressure on the disk beneath it, which seems to engage it with the rest of the mechanism. The other tab won't, and while the film will wind when you turn it with that one, the counter/shutter release won't work. Again, the camera still functions, but I'd like to remedy this. I'd like to at least make the knob look straight in case I want to try selling this thing someday!

I have a 533/16 and am not sure about lifting tabs when winding...anyways, check out pictures in this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/removing-the-bellows-on-a-super-ikonta-532-16.154737/

Could be helpful if you decide on disassembly.

 

[cptrios]

Hey thanks for the responses everyone! I was away for a bit, and put another roll through the camera in the meantime. Despite the various foibles (including, by the way, that someone swapped the back door with one from the 6x9 version, thus making red-window use...interesting), it does work more or less alright. Perhaps I don't need to mess around with it just yet?

 

[Alex Varas]

Nah… it has the same engraving in all Zeiss Ikon cameras using 120 film. Most likely the door is original.

 

[Donald Qualls]

someone swapped the back door with one from the 6x9 version, thus making red-window use...interesting),

That's the original door (a Super Ikonta C, 6x9, would be roundly an inch and a quarter wider). I have a 532/16 and it has the red window on the 6x9 framing track also.

I understand this is because 6x6 framing track wasn't universal on 120 film yet when that camera was designed (about 1938) and 124 film, which was short roll 120 with only 6x6 framing (8 frames), was obsolete. So Zeiss Ikon engineers designed the camera with a turns-counting automatic framing mechanism and used the 6x9 track to start the film at the right position (for 11 frames). IIRC, they did the same with the Baby Rolleiflex and maybe the full size Rolleiflex models introduced before 1940.

If the frame counter is working, you wind the film until 1 shows in the red window, push down on the counter wheel and turn it to 1 (where it will stop) and then close the red window shutter until next time you load. Mine has been modified to give a twelfth frame (by filing another carefully positioned notch in the advance stop wheel, "under the hood"). If the mechanical counter is not working, your easy way out might be to accept large spaces between frames...

 

[cptrios]

Aww I kind of liked the charm of the mis-matched door! Actually, I've found that I can get 12 shots by winding until the 'third dot' shows in the window (not all the way to 1), setting the counter, trusting that for 11 shots, winding a half-ish turn, then triggering the shutter on the lens with my finger. Not perfect, but it does the job.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I can get 12 shots by winding until the 'third dot' shows in the window (not all the way to 1)

That's about what I do to ensure there's enough film for that 12th frame. The half inch you're starting short isn't very significant, but it also tightens the frame spacing for the whole roll (because a turns-counter depends on mechanically "knowing" the radius of the takeup spool at each frame).

 

[JPD]

That's the original door (a Super Ikonta C, 6x9, would be roundly an inch and a quarter wider). I have a 532/16 and it has the red window on the 6x9 framing track also.

I understand this is because 6x6 framing track wasn't universal on 120 film yet when that camera was designed (about 1938) and 124 film, which was short roll 120 with only 6x6 framing (8 frames), was obsolete. So Zeiss Ikon engineers designed the camera with a turns-counting automatic framing mechanism and used the 6x9 track to start the film at the right position (for 11 frames). IIRC, they did the same with the Baby Rolleiflex and maybe the full size Rolleiflex models introduced before 1940.

If the frame counter is working, you wind the film until 1 shows in the red window, push down on the counter wheel and turn it to 1 (where it will stop) and then close the red window shutter until next time you load. Mine has been modified to give a twelfth frame (by filing another carefully positioned notch in the advance stop wheel, "under the hood"). If the mechanical counter is not working, your easy way out might be to accept large spaces between frames...

I think you mean 117-film, that gave six 6x6 frames per roll. It was discontinued in 1949. 124-film was bigger.

The original Rolleiflex used 117-film and the red window was used for each frame. Then the Rolleiflex Standard came on the market, and in the beginning it had two red windows, one on the back for 117-film (B1) and one on the bottom for 120-film (B2) And this was because of the 120-film only had the 6x9 numbers on the backing paper.

Many 6x9 folders have two red windows so they could be used with a mask for 6x4,5 and use the 6x9 numbers when winding before 120-film got the 6x4,5 numbers on the backing paper.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Then the Rolleiflex Standard came on the market, and in the beginning it had two red windows, one on the back for 117-film (B1) and one on the bottom for 120-film (B2) And this was because of the 120-film only had the 6x9 numbers on the backing paper.

Many 6x9 folders have two red windows so they could be used with a mask for 6x4,5 and use the 6x9 numbers when winding before 120-film got the 6x4,5 numbers on the backing paper.

Yes, 117. Long-obsolete formats are hard to keep track of.

So that Rolleiflex Standard had a frame counter, but it could be started with either the 6x9 or 6x6 track (if present), else why not just specify 117 only (yes, 120 is longer, but you'd still only get 8 frames using the red window).

I have a couple dual-format folders, a Wirgin Auta (6x9/6x4.5) and a Moskva 5 (6x6 and 6x9). Both have two windows, used differently. I've also got a Baby Ikonta 127 half-frame that uses two red windows on the full frame track. None of these are related to the way the 532/16 uses the red window (only to place the film for starting the counter). This method is also used in a number of other 6x6 folders, though most use the 6x6 framing track because it was reliably present on 120 film by the early 1950s.

 

[JPD]

Yes, 117. Long-obsolete formats are hard to keep track of.

So that Rolleiflex Standard had a frame counter, but it could be started with either the 6x9 or 6x6 track (if present), else why not just specify 117 only (yes, 120 is longer, but you'd still only get 8 frames using the red window).

The red windows on most of these Rolleiflex Standards were marked, but on some they were not.

On this camera the covers had been lost, as they normally are. Later they got rid of the 117 (B1) window and added a sliding cover for the 120 (B2) window.

 

[fpd2]

I'm glad it works. Just in case, you've got the manual here: https://www.cameramanuals.org/zeiss_ikon/zeiss_ikon_super_ikonta_2x2.pdf
Good luck!