"Sunny 16" rule

darkroommike · Sep 14, 2016

Simon Howers said:
Well I dropped and broke my trusty Weston Master V in Belgium and she's off at the repairers.
............

I own more than one meter and have a spare for my trusty old Sekonic that I have checked against each other at least every six months.

removed account4 · Sep 14, 2016

faberryman said:
So now using a meter is akin to acrobatics.

sometimes ...
like burning and dodging,
or anything for that matter
things can be as complicated or as simple
as the person doing it wants to be.

simple would be ambient reading
or using and in camera meter quick and dirty

more complicated ( acrobatics ) would be spot readings
for 2 minutes or 45 mins ( or whatever ) then calculating the exposure
and then how the negative might be expanded or contracted ... not so quick and dirty.

to each their own...

MattKing · Sep 14, 2016

Real photographers are able to (or are on their way to being able to):
1) evaluate what their meter tells them, and apply judgment and experience to the choice of exposure settings; and
2) if their meter dies or goes missing, or if they are working where there is a known and repeatable amount of light available, make reasonably informed and reliable guesses as to the correct choice of exposure settings.

Light levels don't necessarily change between decisive moments.

faberryman · Sep 14, 2016

more complicated ( acrobatics ) would be spot readings
for 2 minutes or 45 mins ( or whatever ) then calculating the exposure
and then how the negative might be expanded or contracted ... not so quick and dirty.

Show of hands: how many have spent 45 minutes metering a scene? I'd wager that even St. Ansel never spent 45 minutes metering a scene. And it is at least as fast to calculate plus or minus development as it is to calculate a corollary of Sunny 16. I mean even if you are not the sharpest tool in the shed we are talking about counting on the fingers of one hand, not differential calculus. I know that doesn't fit the narrative for those that go meterless, but it doesn''t make it any less true.

removed account4 · Sep 14, 2016

faberryman said:
Show of hands: how many have spent 45 minutes metering a scene? I'd wager that even St. Ansel never spent 45 minutes metering a scene. And it is at least as fast to calculate plus or minus development as it is to calculate a corollary of Sunny 16. I mean even if you are not the sharpest tool in the shed we are talking about counting on the fingers of one hand, not differential calculus. I know that doesn't fit the narrative for those that go meterless, but it doesn''t make it any less true.

chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

macfred · Sep 14, 2016

jnanian said:
chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

Now it's time to send for the doctor (or the cleric ?) ...

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2016

jnanian said:
chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

I have the same reaction in the threads about how slow of a shutter speed one can handhold and get a sharp image.

wilper · Sep 14, 2016

I meter AND calculate. If both methods agree I just shoot. If the results don't agree something has gone wrong and I back up to find out why.
Though, I still consider myself a beginner.

pdeeh · Sep 14, 2016

it is literally impossible to take a properly exposed photograph without having read Dunn and Wakefield and carrying a slide-rule.

literally. impossible.

(camera optional)

faberryman · Sep 14, 2016

wilper said:
I meter AND calculate. If both methods agree I just shoot. If the results don't agree something has gone wrong and I back up to find out why.
Though, I still consider myself a beginner.

I am not sure I understand your terminology. What is the distinction between metering and calculating in your workflow.

faberryman · Sep 14, 2016

pdeeh said:
it is literally impossible to take a properly exposed photograph without having read Dunn and Wakefield and carrying a slide-rule.

literally. impossible.

(camera optional)

Yeah, and it is a shame how few of these young whipper-snapper photographers know what a slide rule is or how to use it. It's like relying on the Sunny 16 rule without a sextant.

And while I'm thinking about it, I may as well bring up the elephant in the room: unless you are using a UV filter, have you considered modifying the Sunny 16 rule to take into consideration the depletion of the ozone layer since the time the rule was first formulated?

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2016

Slide rule... How moderne... Try using an abacas and all 10 fingers.

faberryman · Sep 14, 2016

BrianShaw said:
Slide rule... How moderne... Try using an abacas and all 10 fingers.

What's a guy to do? I only have nine fingers. My left index finger had to be amputated in '63 after I botched the landing of a double layout half in, half out while metering a particularly difficult scene with my Gossen LunaPro. It was, how shall I say, a decisive moment. As fate would have it, a cloud moved overhead and HCB was adjusting the exposure settings on his camera from Sunny 16 to Partly Cloudy 11, and thus missed capturing the scene for posterity.

BrianShaw · Sep 14, 2016

Sounds like you have a biological filter factor compensation for a yellow contrast filter!

Steve Smith · Sep 15, 2016

pdeeh said:
it is literally impossible to take a properly exposed photograph without having read Dunn and Wakefield and carrying a slide-rule.

Great book. Everyone should have a copy!

Steve.

wilper · Sep 16, 2016

faberryman said:
I am not sure I understand your terminology. What is the distinction between metering and calculating in your workflow.

Ahh, sorry, I was typing on the phone and perhaps that got a bit too abbreviated.

First I look at the scene, try to judge the light and make some mental calculations of what exposure I will need.
Then I take out the light meter and see what settings it proposes I use.

If both methods arrive at the same settings I use those.

If they disagree I go through the following checklist.
- Did I use the same ISO in both methods? (Double check against the camera.)
- Did I leave the diffuser cap on the light meter or did I forget to put it in place?
- Are there any bright spots in the scene? Did they trick the light meter? Did I take them into consideration when I did my calculations?
- Am I shooting a backlit or unevenly lit scene, which part of it do I want to expose for?
- The meter did not account for reciprocity failure.

By then I can probably see where I or the meter went wrong and make a decision on how to expose the scene.

faberryman · Sep 16, 2016

Your analysis is confused on so many levels it's difficult to even know where to begin. I'll leave you to it. Good luck.

removed account4 · Sep 16, 2016

wilper said:
Ahh, sorry, I was typing on the phone and perhaps that got a bit too abbreviated.

First I look at the scene, try to judge the light and make some mental calculations of what exposure I will need.
Then I take out the light meter and see what settings it proposes I use.

If both methods arrive at the same settings I use those.

If they disagree I go through the following checklist.
- Did I use the same ISO in both methods? (Double check against the camera.)
- Did I leave the diffuser cap on the light meter or did I forget to put it in place?
- Are there any bright spots in the scene? Did they trick the light meter? Did I take them into consideration when I did my calculations?
- Am I shooting a backlit or unevenly lit scene, which part of it do I want to expose for?
- The meter did not account for reciprocity failure.

By then I can probably see where I or the meter went wrong and make a decision on how to expose the scene.

that is a great way of working.
by judging the site, and calculating
you are learning how to read the light on your own
and understand the reading, and by using the meter too, you
are reinforcing what you learned ...

there are links in this thread to a website with an article on learning the light you might find it useful..
(black cat exposure guide is helpful too )

meters can only help so much, experience and understanding can help in any situation.

good luck !
john

MattKing · Sep 16, 2016

wilper said:
Ahh, sorry, I was typing on the phone and perhaps that got a bit too abbreviated.

First I look at the scene, try to judge the light and make some mental calculations of what exposure I will need.
Then I take out the light meter and see what settings it proposes I use.

If both methods arrive at the same settings I use those.

If they disagree I go through the following checklist.
- Did I use the same ISO in both methods? (Double check against the camera.)
- Did I leave the diffuser cap on the light meter or did I forget to put it in place?
- Are there any bright spots in the scene? Did they trick the light meter? Did I take them into consideration when I did my calculations?
- Am I shooting a backlit or unevenly lit scene, which part of it do I want to expose for?
- The meter did not account for reciprocity failure.

By then I can probably see where I or the meter went wrong and make a decision on how to expose the scene.

This is similar to my approach, except I have a couple of points on my checklist which deal with situations when my mental calculations are subject to being led askew.

The approach only works, of course, when the lighting conditions are likely to be the sort of conditions that one has experience with. Which is fairly common.

faberryman · Sep 16, 2016

wilper said:
First I look at the scene, try to judge the light and make some mental calculations of what exposure I will need.

Are you using Sunny 16 as a starting point? If not, what are you using?

If you are using Sunny 16, what calculations are you making other than deciding what corollary is appropriate?

If you have faith in your ability to determine exposure without a meter, why are you verifying your exposure determination with a meter?

Then I take out the light meter and see what settings it proposes I use.

Okay, we have determined that you are using a hand held light meter.

If both methods arrive at the same settings I use those.

If they disagree I go through the following checklist.

- Did I use the same ISO in both methods? (Double check against the camera.)

Why are you checking your camera to verify ISO? You are using a hand held meter.

- Did I leave the diffuser cap on the light meter or did I forget to put it in place?

Now you are back to using hand held meter, and we have established you are taking incident light readings. (It would be a good time to check your ISO setting here too).

- Are there any bright spots in the scene? Did they trick the light meter? Did I take them into consideration when I did my calculations?

If you are taking an incident light reading correctly (placing the meter next to the subject and aiming it toward the light source), bright spots in the scene will not "trick the meter." That is the advantage of incident light metering.

Am I shooting a backlit or unevenly lit scene, which part of it do I want to expose for?

If you are taking an incident light reading correctly (placing the meter next to the subject and aiming it toward the light source), backlighting is irrelevant, as is uneven lighting. That is the advantage of incident light metering.

- The meter did not account for reciprocity failure.

If you are using commercial available film, there are no circumstances where you are relying on Sunny 16 under which reciprocity failure (exposures longer than 2 seconds) would be an issue.

By then I can probably see where I or the meter went wrong and make a decision on how to expose the scene.

Usually the meter user and not the meter goes wrong.

Poisson Du Jour · Sep 16, 2016

faberryman said:
If you are taking an incident light reading correctly (placing the meter next to the subject and aiming it toward the light source), bright spots in the scene will not "trick the meter." That is the advantage of incident light metering.

Then we have a problem! Sunny 16 is based on incident metering as a method. But it will not work effectively as a measure of luminance (single or multiple values) and difference in contrast in a scene.

Reciprocity failure is actually a major risk for the Sunny 16 rule because it does not take into account the behaviour of the film outside it's known effective exposure range. If people want to master metering, do it properly rather than beat about the bush like amateurs with a "rule" that has the potential to mislead and confuse. Profificient and coherent metering does not rely on, does not need and will not benefit from Sunny 16 for all situations.

A meter is rarely wrong when the trained photographer has a thorough understanding film, light and metering methodology (not just incident or spot, but a combination of those). I would be out of work if I was bereft of both of these.

wiltw · Sep 17, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
Reciprocity failure is actually a major risk for the Sunny 16 rule

I am quite confused...when is it so dim that we are in the reciprocity failure part of the toe of the curve, that Sunny 16 applies?!

removed account4 · Sep 17, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
A meter is rarely wrong when the trained photographer has a thorough understanding film, light and metering methodology (not just incident or spot, but a combination of those). I would be out of work if I was bereft of both of these.

hi PDJ

one of the things i mentioned previously is that many people who use a meter have no idea how to correctly meter a scene,
so they would not have a clue about these things you have mentioned. a few months back there was a rather long and tedious discussion
about how to use a "grey card" which i am sure most people here who meter a scene don't do, never mind calculating reciprocity failure ...
i use negative films and hand coated negatives, if i am a little bit off because of my shoddy sunny 11 technique i dont' sweat it. i know
my cameras'shutters probably need a CLA too which is another topic to discuss, because no mater how perfect someone's EV, spot, luminance
metering and reciprocity calculations might be, if they don't have their lenses CLA'd regularly or at lest use a meter tester to determind what their
meters are firing at, it won't matter. i am guessing if we started a thread and questioned how often people
get their shutters and lenses cleaned and retimed most people don't bother doing it ... i mean people buy used lenes probably 100%
and there are an awful lot of threads and discussions with complaints because all their film was over exposed ...
in the end we all get what we paid for.

Hatchetman · Sep 17, 2016

Scenes at night....I never use a meter. Wouldn't even have a clue how to do it. How do I meter something like this?

Night Train

macfred · Sep 17, 2016

For scenes at night I use my Black Cat Extended Range Exposure Guide http://www.blackcatphotoproducts.com/guide.html

"Sunny 16" rule

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