Suggested replacement for Kodak E6 kit

warrennn · Nov 16, 2010

Again, apologies for misreading 2F/2F's post.

AgX, I agree that the only long term solution (using Kodak chemicals) will be to buy the individual chemicals and make up solutions using starters and replenishers. One problem is the cost: someone on the large format site (I can give the link if you want) estimated the cost for 10 liters as being $267.

This makes 10 L of many solutions (and much more for some others) and is much more costly, per liter, than the 5L kits. It might make it uneconomical to use unless one established a re-use policy, like the professional labs (using replenishers, etc.) This is beginning to sound complicated, but it is worth considering if one is devoted to E6 (as I am).

Cheers,

Warren N

2F/2F · Nov 16, 2010

The 5L kit was great. It was only fifty bucks, with no monkeying with starters, replenishers, etc. I ran through my developer twice, using the second run through for less important stuff, and ran through a third time if I had any cross processing to do. I have three stockpiled, but one is kind of old and has a big "iceberg" in the developer, so I plan to take a blender to it and use it for cross processing. They used to have it on the shelf at Freestyle, and Samy's could always special order it. I don't shoot enough E-6 to warrant a replenished system and large volumes. The 5L kit was the perfect solution for me, and was very cost effective. The 10L batches may be OK for me if they are mixed a liter or two at a time, and the concentrates are decanted as they are used up.

warrennn · Nov 17, 2010

By the way, regarding low temperature storage of e6 chemicals (in a fridge), Rob Landry reports excellent results in *freezing* 1L containers of the mixed chemicals and thawing them before use. There are several threads on apug and photo.net describing his procedures and results. I don't know how long one can store the frozen solutions, but apparently freezing doesn't damage the materials and one would assume that it would slow down the adverse effects of oxidation.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

AgX · Nov 17, 2010

Warren, you asked for alternatives for the Kodak 5-L kit.

You do not seem to be interested in 5L kits (6 bath) by other manufacturers, nor in their larger batch offers.

michaelbsc · Nov 17, 2010

AgX said:
Warren, you asked for alternatives for the Kodak 5-L kit.

You do not seem to be interested in 5L kits (6 bath) by other manufacturers, nor in their larger batch offers.

Where could one buy other 5L kits? 6 bath. In the US without duties.

I suspect the hazmat fee is a given.

warrennn · Nov 17, 2010

No, actually I am very interested in other kits of comparable quality and price to the Kodak kit.

I am sorry, perhaps I should have replied to the suggestion of the Ornano kit, but availability of these kits in the US is a problem. Even if they could be shipped, shipping, customs, and hazmat fees would probably be prohibitive, as Michael has suggested. Searching on ebay for "ornano" came up with nothing photographic.

AgX · Nov 17, 2010

I did not speak about the USA, Michael.
But there are still a lot of chemistry manufacturers worldwide. I shall not bother to look them all up for E-6 and check availibilty and then hear something like "But I rather would buy local."

warrennn · Nov 17, 2010

Yes, I confess that I was being US-centric in my original post. It is unfortunate that the availability of quality e6 processing materials is very limited in the US.

Warren N

2F/2F · Nov 17, 2010

warrennn said:
By the way, regarding low temperature storage of e6 chemicals (in a fridge), Rob Landry reports excellent results in *freezing* 1L containers of the mixed chemicals and thawing them before use. There are several threads on apug and photo.net describing his procedures and results. I don't know how long one can store the frozen solutions, but apparently freezing doesn't damage the materials and one would assume that it would slow down the adverse effects of oxidation.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

Hi, Warren.

You should take a gander at this current APUG post as well: (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

warrennn · Nov 17, 2010

Interesting. I wonder what the difference between ZoneIII's and Rob's procedures were? Was Rob merely lucky or where they doing things differently?

Warren N

Diapositivo · Nov 17, 2010

2F/2F said:
...and if you read my "beef" post, you will see that I was not talking to you, but to the guy who was being a jerk to you!

Man, why this sudden show of stupidity?

Read the thread again. The OP said that "apparently" the kit was discontinued. I gave my suggestion (maybe he can find an Ornano kit). The OP again said the source of this "rumour" (his wording) was a letter appeared in some forum.

Being interested in anything being discontinued, I asked to know the exact wording of the source. So the OP reported the post.

Now, the way I read the post, the kit was still in production, only in a different cut. So I recommended not to post unsubstantiated rumours. There is nothing offensive in this.

Somebody then said that no, the chemistry sold in 10L cut is different from the chemistry sold in 5L cut. I did not know this, fine to know.

There is no need to insult anybody, and there is no need to feel insulted when one is not insulted at all. Relax.

Fabrizio

Diapositivo · Nov 17, 2010

As far as the Ornano material is concerned, the site is www.ornano.it. which also has an English version. Ornano was bought by CPAC so you might find their product in the US, maybe, distributed under the CPAC name or under another brand name of the CPAC group.

The kit I use, KI 90, is one-shot and is available also as single baths.

Fabrizio

Diapositivo · Nov 17, 2010

warrennn said:
By the way, regarding low temperature storage of e6 chemicals (in a fridge), Rob Landry reports excellent results in *freezing* 1L containers of the mixed chemicals and thawing them before use. There are several threads on apug and photo.net describing his procedures and results. I don't know how long one can store the frozen solutions, but apparently freezing doesn't damage the materials and one would assume that it would slow down the adverse effects of oxidation.

Cheers,

Warren Nagourney

Warren, I suppose that varies with the specific chemical.

I spoke some months ago with Marco Berti, who makes customer support at Ornano, and I pestered him with many newbie questions regarding their kit.

Among the questions there was the one regarding if it was sensible to freeze the solutions, and he said "absolutely no" in unambiguous terms.

This does not mean that some different chemistry might not withstand this treatment. But before doing this, I would phone customer support and ask.

Fabrizio

Wishy · Nov 17, 2010

hrst said:
Apparently, at the same time there was a rumor of Fuji Hunt E6 kits discontinued at the Large Format Forum, but that, at least, is not true! They are readily available at least in Europe.

Matt at AG Photographic said that the 3 Bath Fuji Hunt was in the process of being discontinued. Apparently one particular chemical in there which they're nolonger wanting to use (Don't know if thats legal or just company policy).
The 6 bath Fuji will continue, although its nearly double the price of the old kodak kits. Tetinal 3 baths will also continue, although thats a little more expensive than the Fuji Hunt.

Diapositivo · Nov 17, 2010

Regarding the Kodak 10L product being different from 5L product, on the basis that it requires starter and replenisher, I would contact Kodak to see if it is possible to use it as one-shot without starter and replenisher.

In fact, to my knowledge, the starter-replenisher routine is required only for the (repeated) use of high-concentration baths. If you use one-shot baths, the same chemistry might work without any starter-replenisher.

I say this because the only chemistry I bought so far is, as I said, the Ornano KI90, the "kit" for E6 which can be used as one-shot solution in rotary processors.
For this very same kit, Ornano also sells starter and replenisher. For instance for the first developer you have:

I 90: first development;
In 90: Integratore primo sviluppo (replenisher);
IS 90: Starter first development;

If you buy the "kit" you only get I 90.

Dead Link Removed
(page 11)

So I would not be surprised at all if the chemistry in the Kodak 10L kit was the same as the 5L kit or at least if it was at least usable as one-shot solution without much fuss, like the 5L kit.

Fabrizio

Diapositivo · Nov 17, 2010

Oh, another consideration, hopefully final

When I received my Ornano kit, I think it was around January this year, I saw that the production date on one product was 2008. I had bought it at an internet shop, so I phoned Ornano to know if this chemistry was still valid.

The person I spoke to told me that it was normal. The development for instance shows .270608 which means it was produced in June 2008, this was deemed normal, request for E-6 chemistry is not high and production is run in batches and a long time passes between a batch and another. If I get it right, more than a year, that is, and possibly two considered that I received in early 2010 a batch produced in June 2008.

My understanding is that a firm would not announce discontinuation of a product until really the moment comes of making a new batch and they decide that it is not the case.

I don't know this 5L and 10L chemistry from Kodak, but I would not be surprised at all if basically what they decided was to pack the new batch only in 10L packs. The next batch will be produced, who knows, in one year time, and by that time things might have changed again.

That's my understanding of how things should work. Phoning Kodak customer service would probably give definitive answers.

Fabrizio

Matt5791 · Nov 21, 2010

I've been doing some digging around about the Kodak E6 kit, helped by a link sent to me by Tom Kershaw.

The kit we used to sell, 525 6763, was made in France for the European market - ie it was the same, but a little different. As with all Kodak chemisty made in France (by Champion) it was either discontinued or replaced with US equivilents recently. But some items were not replaced with the US equivilents, even if US equivilents existed. I have found the US single use E6 kit is different with a different cat number so I have requested from Kodak that we get it for Europe too.

If it is still made in the US, and if it can be made available for Europe too, then sales will improve overall.

In the meantime we do have the Fuji 6 bath kit, although it is a lot more expensive. http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/fuji-hunt-chrome6-e6-kit-5l-1758-p.asp

We will be listing all the larger separate lab packs soon, which of course work out the best value, but only if oyu are prepared to take on a lot of processing!

Matt

Rob Landry · Nov 24, 2010

warrennn said:
Interesting. I wonder what the difference between ZoneIII's and Rob's procedures were? Was Rob merely lucky or where they doing things differently?

Warren N

Warren,

I replied to ZoneIII in the previous post to see what he did to experience "ruined" chems and film; not much info was provided. I just recently processed a batch of film from my frozen chems and they turned out perfectly as always.

warrennn · Nov 24, 2010

Thanks, Rob. It would be nice to find the key to successful freezing. I am buying up the last stocks of E6 5L kits wherever I can find them and expect to use my "reserve" for the next 10 years or so. Freezing sounds like a possible way to preserve the kits for this period. Do you have an estimate of how long one can keep these chemicals in the frozen state and still find them useful?

Cheers,

Warren N

Rob Landry · Nov 25, 2010

Warren,

I'm not sure how long the chems will last in a frozen state but I personally used a set that had gotten "lost" at the bottom of the deep-freeze which I believe was about 6 years old. I was skeptical at first but upon thawing, all components looked just as they should when mixed fresh. They also performed admirably and the films (Velvia) turned out fine. I have my deep-freeze set quite cold, about -22 Celsius and the chems are frozen solid. I'm pretty sure not much oxidation is occurring at that temp.

When I first started doing this, I had taken a few rolls of film and made psuedo test strips so that I could periodically check to see if there were any adverse effects caused by freezing. Every now and then, I'll run a strip and compare to the original and I can't detect and differences even after pouring over the lightbox until I'm cross-eyed.

I know many are surprised when I suggest freezing but they really shouldn't be; the concentrates in the E6 5L kit dissolve very readily in water with almost no stirring required. And once mixed, the working solutions are quite dilute, mostly 80-90% water.

Anyway, if you want to know more, I'm glad to help in any way I can. Reply here or send me a PM if you wish.

warrennn · Nov 25, 2010

Thanks, Rob. Six years sounds wonderful.

I am currently doing a lot of RA-4 printing -- does freezing work with the RA-4 chemicals also? Although I just started, some people are warning that opened bottles only last for a month or so.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Warren N

Ooops, I am a bit late -- Thanksgiving is a in Oct. in Canada.

Rob Landry · Nov 27, 2010

Warren,

Can't speak to RA-4, never done any traditional color printing so not sure how the chems would react.

As for the E6 kit, I just checked Calumet and they're now officially listing it as "discontinued". Have heard that they're scarce here in Canada too; not many in the distribution chain.

Myself I think this is the straw that will push me to the dark side finally. I've been shooting and processing my own E6 for years and while I enjoyed the experience tremendously, without the 5L kit it's just not worth it. Can't imaging using the 10L chems with their starters etc. Besides, those chems are really designed for a lab environment and for replenishment. The beauty of the 5L kit is that it was designed to mix up in a variety of different water conditions without the need to monitor or alter pH levels and such. I don't know if one would be able to get equally good results from the 10L sizes in the home environment.

Kinda depressing really but as they say, all good things must come to an end.

warrennn · Nov 27, 2010

I can understand how you feel, Rob. It will take far more than this to push me to the dark side. As an amateur, the point of photography is enjoying the process and tools. The workflow and equipment in the alternative process are simply uninteresting to me: I hate cameras which seem to be little more than plastic computers with optics apparently attached as an afterthought and I hate looking at photos on a computer screen or using photoshop to do the necessary processing in order for the results to be presentable.

I don't think I would mind mixing the chems in the 10L kit; my objection is price. The cost per liter of working solution seems to be at least twice that of the 5L kit. I suppose one could follow your procedure and freeze the solutions. My understanding is that the starter materials simulate the processing of film with new solutions and that leaving the starters out might not make much difference.

I am enjoying RA-4 print processing and have mixed the solutions without starters with no apparent adverse effect.

Good luck.

Warren N

Diapositivo · Nov 28, 2010

Sorry if I insist. I just relate here a fact I know regarding another E-6 6 bath product, the one produced by CPAC - Ornano

This product is the very same for one-shot use with rotary processors, and for minilab. For the same chemistry, you can also buy the starters and the replenishers, because that would you need if you want to use it the way minilabs use it. If instead you want to use them one-shot, you use them without replenishers and without starters. The "basic" chemistry is exactly the same.

So, I wonder, E-6 being E-6, why shouldn't this be true for Kodak also?

The fact that Kodak markets their 10 litres product indicating the use of starters, replenishers etc. may be simply the result of the fact that the main "target" of 10 litres solution is the minilabs markets. I deem very likely that the chemistry used in the 10l kit is exactly the same as in the 5L kit (the 5l kit has the same chemistry, but without starters and replenishers).

Before giving up, I really would phone Kodak. If Ornano does not bother about making two different e6 six-baths chemistry, and sells the same both for rotary processors and for minilabs, why should Kodak choose to produce two chemically different products? Maybe PE can be of assistance on this matter.

Hope this helps

Fabrizio

michaelbsc · Nov 28, 2010

Diapositivo said:
Sorry if I insist. I just relate here a fact I know regarding another E-6 6 bath product, the one produced by CPAC - Ornano

This product is the very same for one-shot use with rotary processors, and for minilab. For the same chemistry, you can also buy the starters and the replenishers, because that would you need if you want to use it the way minilabs use it. If instead you want to use them one-shot, you use them without replenishers and without starters. The "basic" chemistry is exactly the same.

So, I wonder, E-6 being E-6, why shouldn't this be true for Kodak also?

The fact that Kodak markets their 10 litres product indicating the use of starters, replenishers etc. may be simply the result of the fact that the main "target" of 10 litres solution is the minilabs markets. I deem very likely that the chemistry used in the 10l kit is exactly the same as in the 5L kit (the 5l kit has the same chemistry, but without starters and replenishers).

Before giving up, I really would phone Kodak. If Ornano does not bother about making two different e6 six-baths chemistry, and sells the same both for rotary processors and for minilabs, why should Kodak choose to produce two chemically different products? Maybe PE can be of assistance on this matter.

Hope this helps

Fabrizio

This is a very interesting observation. I do hope PE can answer about this, or anyone knowledgeable for that matter.

If the 10L kit can be used one shot in a rotary processor, and especially if the freezing discussion turns out to be a good mechanism for extending shelf life, then this isn't so bad.

I've been trying to decipher the E6 and C41 chemistry for a while, but I'm interested in one-shot rotary processing. I'm not interested in giving up my processor. I've gotten used to loading the tanks, and setting the parameters, and then expecting the machine to prevent processing errors.

(Too bad it can't fix exposure errors!!)

Suggested replacement for Kodak E6 kit

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