Successor of Technical PAN?

[Jedidiah Smith]

If I may be so rude as to nudge my way in here...
...can anyone please explain the difference between Adox CMS 20, Bluefire Police (I thought this was an ADOX product but apparently differs from CMS 20?) and the best of all...Kodak Techpan. Are they all the same type of film? I know there was an Agfa one in there - Copex maybe? Isn't Gigabit one of these, just re-branded?
The reason these films would be of interest is because I have a wonderful Minolta manual focus 35mm setup (XD-11) that I would love to use for bigger enlargments than I can get with Tmax 100 or Acros 100. The Rokkor prime lenses are top notch and have a beautiful look to the bokeh, etc. I would love to shoot the finest grain possible and see what the limit is!
Thanks for your time,
Jed

 

[Fotohuis]

Hi Jedidiah,

You are talking about orthochromatic micro films: CMS 20/ SPUR Orthopan UR, Bluefire Police, with a special made custom developer suitable for pictographical photography.

This ATP-V1 Technical Pan film is NOT a micro film according the Rollei/Maco and Gigabit company information. An overlay of the discontinued TP 2415 film from Kodak, also with extended red sensitivity till 700nm.

Here the micro film specs from SPUR:

http://www.spur-photo.com/dat_ort_ure.pdf
or ADOX (same film):
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Filme/ADOX_CMS_Filme/ADOX_CMS_Filme.html

and the test:
http://www.imx.nl/photo/film_2/the_modern_slow_speed_silve.html

All based on ortho film or micro orthochromatic film.

This is the Rollei ATP-V1 Technical Pan data sheet:
http://www.mahn.net/DL_MAHN/ATP_V1_e.pdf

or here:
http://www.gigabitfilm.de/html/english/news/news.php?Layout=normal

Regards,

Robert

 

[Fotohuis]

Some Rollei ATP-V1 Technical Pan results:

Ravenstein, the Netherlands
Rollei ATP-V1 Technical Pan 35mm, Leica M7 + Elmarit 2,8/28mm
SPUR Imagespeed 1+14 5:30 min
Stop S-10 Amaloco 1+19 0:30 min
Fix X55 Amaloco (Acid) 1+7 4:00 min
Wetting agent SWA Rollei 1+3000 1:00 min

35mm negative NEW Technical Pan film Rollei
E.I. 32

Very small part of the 35mm negative
E.I. 32 (+)

Rollei ATP-V1 Technical Pan in Rollei Low Contrast (R.L.C.) 1+5 6:00 min. Small part of the 35mm negative (E.I. 25).

Results made by Epson 3170 (3200dpi flatbed scanner).

Next developer for testing: Rodinal 1+150 - 1+200.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[AgX]

Jed,

Keep in mind that there are two men (and companies) possessing the `Adox´ brandname. Thus there is are a German and a Canadian Adox.

 

[Fotohuis]

Exactly, to be complete the web site from Canada:

http://www.frugalphotographer.com/

How they are handling by international (TM) Adox I don't know, maybe a problem, maybe not.....

 

[Fotohuis]

OK, just back from the Fotoforum festival in Münster (Germany).
The two main German specialized photochemical companies Moersch and SPUR had both two new excellent developers for this ATP-V1 film:
Moersch, UGI 1+11 ; E.I. 25 Ultra fine grain and nice grey scale.
SPUR: Technospeed 1+14 ; E.I. 40 till E.I. 50 with this new ATP-V1 Rollei film.

 

[Jedidiah Smith]

Ok, so to re-group for me, I'm a little new to this area of films.
The Canadian ADOX is "Bluefire Police" film. The other ADOX is German, ie Gigabit style film?

And this new Rollei ATP-V1 is actually better than both (for pictorial photography), and is more like Kodak's old TechPan...do I have all that right?
Jed

 

[DrPablo]

Do MF (and LF) lenses have sufficient resolution to take advantage of these super high-res films?

 

[dynachrome]

Tech Pan Replacement

If you are using TMX and ACROS properly then you will not see a huge improvement with a much slower film whether it is a copy film or something else. You must also make an apples to apples comparison. By that I mean that you should use a tripod when shooting with TMX or ACROS. If you use these films hand held and then use the slower film with a tripod you will not get a fair comparison. My favorite developer for ACROS is Fuji Microfine. With this combination I find that I get grain which is at least as fine as anything I can get with TMX.

What about a Tech Pan replacement in 120 size? You can get Kodak Imagelink HQ and FS films in that size from Film For Classics. These films do not have the extended red senitivity of Tech Pan but from what I have seen they have the same find grain and sharpness. The 35mm format is the most flexible one and there will always be uses for very fine grain film in that size. Unless you are making wall size enlargements the question should how a very fine grain film like Imagelink in 35mm compares to Ilford Pan F+ or Fuji ACROS or Kodak TMX in 120 size. Medium format equipment is selling for very little now. If you know you will need to make very large prints then shooting with Pan F+ or ACROS or TMX with a medium format camera will be easier and better than using an even slower super fine grain film and a 35mm camera.

 

[dr5chrome]

testing phase

We have been testing this film and will soon have a page for it on our website.

So far, this film mimics TP very well. As a positive it has near the same contrast range. Its tonal color is warmer than that of TP and appears to be more a PAN film instead of the scientific-film TP was. It also seems as sharp as TP but we wont know this till we drum scan the film.

25iso is its normal in dr5 and has tested well from 8 - 100 iso. We have also run some tests in Tecnadol and it performed well.

regards

www.dr5.com

 

[3Dfan]

I'm happy to hear it can be used as a positive. I'll look forward to testing a few rolls in your process.

 

[AgX]

Do MF (and LF) lenses have sufficient resolution to take advantage of these super high-res films?

Dr. Pablo,

This is a question raised again and again. Most probably as these films were/are marketed as high-resolution films. But even if their resolution scope is far ahead of what your lens will project onto the film, they have the ability to yield higher microcontrast in the low-resolution range than standard films.

Furthermore, don’t forget that the effective MTF of a photographic system is very much dependend on the weakest link in the chain. However other, better, links can give a positve effect. These films are a quite cheap means to provide such a better link.
The best way to find out is to give them a try in your system (if you can get hold of films in those sizes).

Yes, I know the MTF is not the only characteristic important in a film or a photographic system in general.

 

[genecrumpler]

gigabitfilm Progress

HI guys;

I use to be the Tech Pan expert on photo.net. I've worked with different micro contrast films such as copex and kodilith and have produced a few usable images with these films in 35mm. I shot Tech Pan exclusively in my nikons for over ten years. I know TP well.

I've been watching with much interest, the development of Giagibitfilm. I have personally used this film in both 35mm and 4x5 sizes. I have been in contact with the developer and patent holder of this technology. Just two days ago I completed a 4 page data sheet on the new 135 film. I took the data sheet written in German-English and rewrote it for Americans. Take a look at
www.technicalpan.com for a few words.

I beleive I am one of the few persons in the USA to have tried the Gigabitfilms
in actual photographic situations.

Here is what I know from personal testing of this film.

1. When I got hold of the orginal 35mm gigabitfilm about 5 years ago and shot it, I concluded at the time it was equal or better as Tech Pan. At that time, I was developing TP in Ethol TEC, two solution formula. I rated it at 80 and got hundreds/thousands great negatives and prints.

5 years ago TP was still marketed by our some time friends at Kodak. The two solution TEC was available. So 5 years ago I saw no need to pursue Gigabitfilm for my photography.

Well as we all know, TP is no more, althought I still have a few rolls in the freezer. I'm holding them for lens testing. First, ethol stopped making the two solution TEC and when I switched to the liquid TEC still available, I no long got good results. Then TP was discontinued.

My solution at the time was to abandon 35mm and move to MF cameras. With 6x6 and 6x7 fromats, the results of shooting Tmax 100 and Delta 100 were barely acceptable, compared to TP 6415 in MF. The 35mm TP negatives still gave better print quaility (grain-wise) than MF negatives using t-100 and delta 100, developed in Ilfosol-s.

I started talking with Lidwig, the patent holder and manufacturer. He had indicated for several years that a 120 Gigabitfilm was on the horizon. How ever, he ran into problems finding funding for a new (obsolute technology) film.

2. Two years ago i purchsed a box of 4x5 Gigabitfilm with the developer for a rather steep price. I shoot both tmas100 and 4x5 gigabitfilm side by side. In 16x20 prints, I could see little difference. I concluded at that time 4x5 Gigabitfilm was serious over kill for most 4x5 uses, since diffraction is the most inportant sharpness killing effect at f22 and beyond.
What good is a 4x5 film with a 320 lp/mm resolution at a 16:1 contrast ratio, when the difraction limit at f-22 is 61 lp/mm on-axis?

Howere, I tried the following experiment. I cut the 4x5 film down to 6x7 and made a couple of tests with it, loading the cut down sheets one at a time and then taking the camera out side to make an exposure. Results with 6x7 were as good as 4x5 tmax, delat 100. Since I have been a confirmend lens tester and I use what turned out to be the exact same testing routine that zeiss uses for their resolution tests, I tested my 55mm F4.0 Pentax 67 lens with the cut down gigabitfilm. I used this lens, becasue I subjectively believe it is the sharpest lens I own. Much to my suprise, I was able to read 156 lp/mm at f5.6 on the AF chart with this lens. This value is very near to the diffraction limit of a lens a f5.6. Once I did this test , I started talking with Ludwig, hoping a 120 version would soon be out.

He now tells me it will be availiable shortly. IMHO, this film will revive MF film photography, at least a little bit (not that It has gone anywhere). For me personally, this new film will solve a situation that I have had for several years. I do most of my traveling with groups and do not have the time or inclination to shoot 4x5 when jumping off and on a tour bus. I use hasselblads for travel photogrpahy where I have to live with international air line restrictions on carry on luggage, etc, etc. With the addiitionof a third A-12 magazine, I will be able to bring home 4x5 quailty images in 6x6.

I'm excited to get my hands on 120/320 gigabitfilm!!!!

 

[genecrumpler]

Image examples

Attached I hope!, are straight scans from the same subject, a church across the street from my house. NO changes were made in either, straight from my
Epson 3170. What you are seeing is approximately a section of a 50x60 inch print from a 4x5 negative, or less than one cm of the actual negative.

I think these speak for thenselves. the lens is a 150 mm f 6.8 grenoer (sp?) stopped dowm to f-22.

 

[genecrumpler]

Follow up

The thumb nail on the left is t-max 100 and the right is gigbitfilm. The file names did not up load with the images!

 

[Alan Johnson]

It would be easier in 35mm if someone made image-stabilized medium to wide prime lenses,nobody does, there may be some technical reason.

 

[AgX]

Might be a technical problem (due to tight lens-elements packing?), but sure is a commercial issue. First the films, then the lenses.

I use FD's so there is no idea in waiting for such lenses. I'll have to bolt down the camera and shout "Freeze!!"...

But actually those kind of films will give better tonality to unsharp regions. This includes motion blurr..

 

[walter ivenz]

Hello everybody,
we europeans can not understand the connection between microfilms and the tech-pan film. Because these 2 films are different types.
Usual microfilms have deep blacks with little differences in the tones.
So, they cannot be used for astronomie pictures.
Technical Pan films are superpan. With sensibility for the expanded red-area.The new Rollei ATP 1.1 can be used up to 800 ISO/ASA with hypersensisbility!
The european original version reaches an Iso rating of 10/12, if you are using the RLC-developer.
Another developer, which would be presented shortly from Rollei,so-called "ATP DC", reaches 40 to 50 ISO/ASA.
The main point is the big difference between the tones. Not the sensibility or sharpness.Photographers prefer negatives with fine
structures in the shadows and lights. For that demand, tech-pan films have their individual plus-points.
The assumption for that is you have to measure on the shadows.
If you want some lights in the shadows, which brings you an extra quality, you should use a 2-bath-developer.
Use a thin developer delution for the first minutes-longer then normal, than use a stronger dilution -shorter as normal -for the rest of developing.
Currently in europe many people have very interesting information exchanges via internet discussion-boards.
Very surprising! Because none thought, that a producer would present a real replacement of the Kodak Tech Pan defenitly.
Regards
Walter

 

[genecrumpler]

Walter-If you have not used Kodak TP(135 and 120) for 10-15 years as your primary B&W film, you can not know what we Americans are all excited about!

As to 2 bath development, I have used Diafine with techpan with good, not gret results. See the Massive Developer Table at www.digitaltruth.com

Gene Crumpler
The TP kid

 

[Jedidiah Smith]

Genecrumpler,
That was a very interesting user report. Obviously I am a late comer as TP is no longer around...I find this very sad, as I'm sure it would be my number one B&W film. (I shoot a lot of landscape with 35mm because I backpack/hike, mountain bike, etc.)
Which of the films - Bluefire Police, Gigabit, or this new Rollei VP-1 film would you recommend someone to start with? I love the tonality of Plus-X 125, but realize these films will probably be more like modern TMax-100 looking due to the technology...it would be fun to see how large I can go with my manual Minolta Rokkor primes.
Thanks,
Jed

 

[AgX]

These films are different in technology from films like Delta and T-Max.

 

[Fotohuis]

Exactly, if you pull preferable an Acros 100 (Sigma technology) to iso 50 with the right ultra fine grain developer and working on large format you will have even more resolution. But working with films like the Rollei ATP-V1.1 can give you the same 35mm results than in small medium format.
Typical a film for R.F. cameras like C.V. ; Zeiss, Leica a.s.o. with the right lenses.

The choice in developers is going in the range from E.I. 16 till E.I. 40-50 with this ATP-V1.1 film now. (Technidol, U.G.I., R.L.C., Technospeed).
The SPUR Technospeed and Moersch U.G.I. developers are even recommended on the official Rollei ATP-V1.1 flyer now.

There will be some special introduction kit for a very low price next month (November), available worldwide.

 

[WRSchmalfuss]

Rollei ATP1.1

In Europe the ROLLEI-FILM ATP 1.1 film is available now in two countries. France and German. Market introduction in UK effective with SILVERPRINT, London, in November 2007.

Which concerns the USA, FREESTYLE will decide, when this ROLLEI-FILM is added to the existing product range.

To whom the results of practice determined in Germany interests, here to of the left: http://www.aphog.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2688

For those, which would like to read also gladly in English language, here is a quick translation:

Good day, so now we know more concretely about the availability of developers, learned at the photo show in Muenster/Germany.

A. The SPUR developer carries out up to 40/50 ISO. It comes to somewhat (like Mr. Schain says) "grain noise" at extremely high enlargements. Also, for Mr. Schain are the very good results surprising. Above all, if a utilization of sensitivity is aimed at.

B. The MOERSCH developer carries already outstanding results out at approx. 16 ISO (!). Very good light design exposes on the shade. Substantially clearer gray tone value separation (shadow details) than with micro films themselves. Mr. Moersch leaves us kindly some samples on Saturday. I keep it for admirable, in which a short time Mr. Moersch has "miracletly" this product.

C. The ROLLEI RLC developer, the traditional, for 25 years satisfactorily working low-contrast developer. After the evaluation the asked specialists came to almost corresponding opinion: RLC is not more different than the MOERSCH developer, but evenly with 12 ISO, maximally 16 ISO. Thereby, to expose onto the shade is extremely important. Dilutions do not bring much. Rotation clouds are not to be feared.

D. The KODAK Technidol LC developer carries out 12 ISO, also here: Exposure on the shade is essential for a gray tone value separation in the shade/depths. There is a danger of "flooding" in the deep blackness.

E. The GIGABIT GTP developer was not available for a comparison test in Muenster. The results at the Digital vs. Analogue show at MONOCHROM in Berlin, two weeks before, brought some results. These to evaluate, are not entitled to me.

My personal results, with its own in each case characteristics, which differentiates between it from each other. With A + B + C extensive comparison tests were accomplished, which led all together to excellent results. It was to be expected, that different producers offer different development of deviating results. My results: Who attaches importance to 16 ISO, a developer, that already worked in addition in combination with the original TP, storable and comparatively inexpensive is: The ROLLEI LOW CONTRAST (RLC) developer. Who attaches against it importance on 16 ISO, and which would like to use the typical quality criteria of the MOERSCH chemistry for itself, is very well waived with it. About a price, I cannot say anything, because that was not yet well-known on Saturday, the 20th. Who attaches importance to maximum utilization of sensitivity, that should be concerned with the SPUR developer. This developer is so good, that in some weeks the SPUR will also be put on the market at your disposal, as ROLLEI ATP DC.

Purchase as ROLLEI branded articles over www.macodirect.de and/or at MONOCHROM, and local dealers in Germany.

ATTENTION, advertisement: Since today, there is a ATP1.1 test set to the knowing, learning for 19.99 Euro for 4 films, and a bottle (250ml) ROLLEI RLC for 4 films available.

With kind regards

Sebastian Junghans
-Marekting Manager-
MACO PHOTO PRODUCTS

 

[PKM-25]

Hmmmm...now I feel silly for hoarding hundreds of rolls of 35mm and 120 Tech Pan......or maybe not....?

 

[Fotohuis]

Hmmmm...now I feel silly for hoarding hundreds of rolls of 35mm and 120 Tech Pan

Maybe you can start up a Kodak TP project too

Nice pics that Kodachrome project BTW.