Successes in Kodachrome K-14 cross processing as B&W

StoneNYC · Jul 19, 2013

Hey Guys!

So I've done my first experiment with processing K64 as B&W

I haven't scanned them yet, but so far they look "usable".

I've done a lot of C-41 x-processing already with success.

I was able to MOSTLY clear the remjet layer but will have to work more on it next time, I had to squeegee more of it off.

This was taken shortly after it was hanging...

The base color was not expected, I'll have to figure out if there's a way to clear that, or if I've done something wrong in my process.

As its dried the base looks darker, I hope that's not a fixer issue, but it's possible by the time it dries that it won't be good anymore.

I have a few bricks of it coming from a very nice APUGer and figured it was a good day to start experimenting with what I do have left...

I'll report back after dinner with some scanned images...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

MattKing · Jul 19, 2013

Looks interesting Stone:

Have you seen this Sticky thread?: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Alan W · Jul 19, 2013

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) Here's my one!

StoneNYC · Jul 19, 2013

MattKing said:
Looks interesting Stone:

Have you seen this Sticky thread?: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Apparently I did but have forgotten as I posted a bunch in it...

I did NOT do this bleach extra fix steps ... seems it takes WAY more fixing time than normal films and it's going black... sigh... well at least I am able to scan it before it's completely gone...

Posting my first results soon but as I said, it's already going black, and it's just my cat and my back yard so I'm not too worried...

StoneNYC · Jul 19, 2013

StoneNYC · Jul 19, 2013

What I don't understand is this bleaching step that I've just discovered Matt, It seems to just be fixer and citric acid ... will that get rid of this terrible orange color? I noticed that when I took off the clip that under the clip was still a lot lighter ... but I put it in complete darkness to dry to see if it was just not fixed enough and it still was dark.. .examples to come...

StoneNYC · Jul 19, 2013

Have to post from my cell phone...

How dark the stain of my life...

Before...

After...

Again before under the clip where it was wet...

And after, dried in complete darkness..

What's going on here?

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

MattKing · Jul 20, 2013

StoneNYC said:
What I don't understand is this bleaching step that I've just discovered Matt, It seems to just be fixer and citric acid ... will that get rid of this terrible orange color? I noticed that when I took off the clip that under the clip was still a lot lighter ... but I put it in complete darkness to dry to see if it was just not fixed enough and it still was dark.. .examples to come...

I'm not the one to ask Stone.

But I don't think citric acid plus fixer constitutes bleach.

EDIT: Is this the "Conditioner" step?

Tom1956 · Jul 20, 2013

Stone, it does my heart good to see a young fellow fooling with all this.

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

MattKing said:
I'm not the one to ask Stone.

But I don't think citric acid plus fixer constitutes bleach.

EDIT: Is this the "Conditioner" step?

This was referenced in the thread you gave...

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

It's about removing the yellow stain layer...

clayne · Jul 20, 2013

I presume you're running into the CLS yellow layer?

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

clayne said:
I presume you're running into the CLS yellow layer?

Yes but also other issues, but the other issues I think are part of not enough fixing...

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

clayne · Jul 20, 2013

Well, negs are definitely dark due to the CLS layer. You need some kind of light bleach to remove this without removing the rest of the silver. Fixing comes along with bleaching in that it removes rehalogenated silver (which bleach gives you) in all cases.

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

clayne said:
Well, negs are definitely dark due to the CLS layer. You need some kind of light bleach to remove this without removing the rest of the silver. Fixing comes along with bleaching in that it removes rehalogenated silver (which bleach gives you) in all cases.

Sometimes I just feel plain dumb.

I'm not a chemist and often I know for example a year ago I read and participated in such threads but didn't understand any of it.

Now I SORT of understand some. The way I learn is not the traditional way and it takes me a while I absorb it and I really need to DO it to retain it. Not a memorizer...

I don't really even know what rehalogenate means.

I'm also still confused how adding citric acid to fixer makes it a bleach. I got to talk to my dad (the chemist/physicist) and he said something about bleach might be an oxidizer of some kind and adding citric acid to a base can have different effects than adding it to an alkali and that might be why the citric acid in fixer makes it a bleach, but not having worked in chemistry for over 30 years he's forgotten a lot.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

clayne · Jul 20, 2013

Bleach rehalogenates developed silver back into silver halide which you cannot see (for the most part). This is then redevelopable with any developer. On the same token it is also a candidate for removal by fixing. If you bleach a print or film and put it back into developer it'll come right back. One can do this countless times. However if you bleach a print or film and put it into fixer, then the fixer does it's job and removes all undeveloped (which rehalogenated silver is) silver from the print or film. To rehalogenate means to re-halide hence silver->silver halide. All film and paper is silver halide based. If you use a dilute bleach you can rehalogenate only light density silver while leaving the rest relatively unaffected. CLS is part of this light density mask of silver.

I'll let someone else comment on the citric acid part.

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

clayne said:
Bleach rehalogenates developed silver back into silver halide which you cannot see (for the most part). This is then redevelopable with any developer. On the same token it is also a candidate for removal by fixing. If you bleach a print or film and put it back into developer it'll come right back. One can do this countless times. However if you bleach a print or film and put it into fixer, then the fixer does it's job and removes all undeveloped (which rehalogenated silver is) silver from the print or film. To rehalogenate means to re-halide hence silver->silver halide. All film and paper is silver halide based. If you use a dilute bleach you can rehalogenate only light density silver while leaving the rest relatively unaffected. CLS is part of this light density mask of silver.

I'll let someone else comment on the citric acid part.

That was helpful, thanks, that also made a lot of sense and I'm STARTING to get "this whole film thing" but I'll have to re-read this in the morning.

~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

clayne · Jul 20, 2013

StoneNYC said:
That was helpful, thanks, that also made a lot of sense and I'm STARTING to get "this whole film thing" but I'll have to re-read this in the morning.

The one thing to remember is this: it's all just a big silver-based game.

Prof_Pixel · Jul 20, 2013

Stone,

The bleach described in http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf is a actually a weak bleach/fix designed to remove the CLS 'stain'. Note the comment: "Stop bleaching if reduction of the silver image becomes apparent. It is better to leave a little stain than to lose the silver image."

CLS (Carey Lee Silver) is colloidal silver used as a filter layer.

AgX · Jul 20, 2013

Stone, what you call base colour differs on the rebates from the rest of the film strip in your sample.

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
Stone,

The bleach described in http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf is a actually a weak bleach/fix designed to remove the CLS 'stain'. Note the comment: "Stop bleaching if reduction of the silver image becomes apparent. It is better to leave a little stain than to lose the silver image."

CLS (Carey Lee Silver) is colloidal silver used as a filter layer.

so you bleach in daylight?

StoneNYC · Jul 20, 2013

AgX said:
Stone, what you call base colour differs on the rebates from the rest of the film strip in your sample.

I don't follow.... rebates? having a translation error...

Prof_Pixel · Jul 20, 2013

StoneNYC said:
so you bleach in daylight?

Sure. You are just trying to convert the CLS into a form that the fixer (in that bath) removes. The CLS is very fine particles of silver that can be easily beached and fixed by that bath. You want to avoid 'over doing it' so that you actually bleach and fix image silver.

AgX · Jul 20, 2013

Stone, sorry:

Rebates = Film Edges

In the case of your sample I refer to edges areas including the perforation areas.

TheToadMen · Jul 21, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Hey Guys!

The base color was not expected, I'll have to figure out if there's a way to clear that, or if I've done something wrong in my process.
~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure but if I remember correctly the Kodak BW400 film (= B&W film for C-41) has also a brown base?? I'm not sure but can't check it right now.
You could develop an unexposed part of the film to see what colour the base is in itself.

Prof_Pixel · Jul 21, 2013

TheToadMen said:
I'm not sure but if I remember correctly the Kodak BW400 film (= B&W film for C-41) has also a brown base?? I'm not sure but can't check it right now.
You could develop an unexposed part of the film to see what colour the base is in itself.

It not the Kodachrome film base color you see, it's the CLS (Carey Lee Silver) that is colloidal silver used as a yellow filter layer.

Successes in Kodachrome K-14 cross processing as B&W

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Successes in Kodachrome K-14 cross processing as B&W

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