Studying for Quiz on Englarger

[sun of sand]

I have taught College, University, and Grad School (not photography -Labour Relations Law). I have met a few students like the writer in this quote who are convinced that they know everything and just how it should be taught. If they graduate (which is rare) they are invariably ineffective in industry. If they're lucky, they grow up before they graduate and change their attitude.

What I am saying is that a beginner doesn't need to read a diagram in order to learn how to operate the thing
The teacher needs to teach the student how to operate the thing
How long would it truly take?

If a student is supposed to learn something valuable by reading a simple diagram that takes perhaps PERHAPS 1 hour to look over

-and probably less time to create that is if it wasn't taken from somewhere

till you're bleeding from the eyes searching for more
it is obvious that the teacher could do the same in class where not only do you get to know the name given to the part but what it really does and how it does it

Not enough time?
Focus on what's important. Too hard? Too bad.

Who needs to know terms? This is the COLUMN and this is the BELLOWS and this over here is the... what the hell DO you call the knob that focuses the image
OH, the FOCUS KNOB? What brilliant stuff that is. Make up your own name for the enlarger parts! Call the bellows the Scrunchy, I don't care.

You need not know the names in order to use the enlarger correctly. It's performance padding.


What is the teachers job? Supervisor? Grader? Giver of diagrams and homework?
I thought teachers taught
It seems with too many teachers here in the US at least that the textbook teaches and teacher plays a secondary role
Taking a page from prisons, I guess.
Let the students teach themselves and when they forget everything they taught themselves during the 3 month teacher vacation known as summer
Blame the student
All of a sudden you need more $$$$$ so that you can get whatever the hell crap these schools purchase for the education of their students -certainly not better teachers

..but bigger, badder tile and nicer windows HELL YES, that'll work

and then when that doesn't work revisit corporal punishment because it's obviously the culture of the day that is ruining subverting the educational system
Sounds like a prison the more I think about it


"ineffective in industry"
Like not so good at stamping license plates?
You want real leaders or real obedient oxen?
You want a productive, inventive, innovative workforce or is it the ability to cheat the people producing your goods what you're most after?
Dumb workers produce goods at a good clip with the least unrest
Innovation can come from workers if they're allowed to innovate. Innovation produces more, better. More employees than employers so obviously a huge potential there
BETTER is up to the boss to define. Hard workers or hard-working, equally intelligent workers? I don't knowwww. Would the worker go into business for himself? Takes money +. Would the worker remain loyal and help? Needs a reason to stay. Is it any better for the boss, though?

I wonder how many true teachers are "ineffective in industry" when they decide to walk out
100% of em
You cannot be effective - not in the same way- if what is being called effective isn't
There isn't any way to really show your goods when a 4.0 is basically the best you can score in the world
75% looks ok when you're allowed to miss 10% with no penalty whatsoever
75% starts to look pretty damn mediocre when you realize you missed 1/4 of the questions asked

I'm not very good at playing games like this, dude.
I get a little sick when people smile at their -barely- passing grade
people can do better if it is expected of them



"If they're lucky, they give up before they graduate and change their attitude."

Grow up, eh? Sorry
What do you mean by that exactly?

I remember being one of the more mature kids growing up
so
I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out where those immature dinks passed me up
In fact, I can point out a few of those same kids who did grow up to graduate from grad school and are still no different yet are
I guess what you'd call effective
..eventhough it appears one of them -and this guy was sort of a friend of mine is content to "ruin" or make much more difficult
his life and those of others
I do not envy that man

Seems to me you'd change my attitude so that I don't cut at "your" core anymore
I'd be one of those students you have high hopes for but
"just couldnt"
bend the rules so that I could achieve them


I'm not the one who really needs to grow up
Being "ineffective" is not a part of who I am
I am "ineffective" only if c*c*blocked.

As for this student
I'm pretty sure he knows better than to take attitude with someone
I hope he does, anyway

 

[ann]

it is obvious your very angry, however, you are making a lot of assumption.

Perhaps the instructor did review all the information and heaven forbid wants their students to pay attention. You weren't there and you really don't know what was said or expected.

i expect my students to know the correct terms to use as they aren't even graded.

It is difficult to help someone when they said i forgot what that black thing does. that black thing can be a variety of things. Much easier to say, the negative carrier won't fit correctly.

 

[mark]

It is not worth it ann. The need for proper terminology has escaped him.

 

[BobNewYork]

And the poor kid was only asking us for help with a homework assignment!!!

Bob

 

[Konical]

Good Evening,

Ann--Your response to the rambling sun of sand diatribe above is a reasoned and sensible one, but Mark is probably right in deeming it futile. There are none so ignorant as those who refuse to be taught because they already know everything. Everyone, of course, is an expert on education; after all, everyone has been in school. My sympathy to those teachers who had to have sun of sand in class.

Konical

 

[dancqu]

...and what is a filter hatch? Perhaps you mean filter drawer, ...

Does not the 23CII filter drawer have a closure, a hatch? Dan

 

[sun of sand]

lol
always been an excellent student and pleasure to have in class -have it in writing
Not angry at all don't often get angry

the world ain't perfect and the US certainly isn't doing as good a job educating it's youth as it should or even as well as it seems to think
All agree?
Plenty of dumb kids running around ..I'm sure a lot of you yell at em as they walk over your lawns and such


If a teacher shows their students how to operate an enlarger a few times
Does so with thought and patience
They shouldn't need to hand out stupid diagrams to be taken home
period. It's simple. Monkeys could do it.
Lets take this somewhere else where you may see it a little clearer

Lets go golfing
What do you need to know in order to hit a shot?
You need a freakin club and a ball ..no need to know nothin'
No need for diagrams or proper terminology of all the parts to a club or how it's manufactured and why certain
garbage.
You need a club and a ball
You need to swing
No need for examination of swing plane or ball placement or trajectory
just hit a ball

If you spent a couple thousand on private lessons and the first thing they do is hand out diagrams of clubs and crap
I bet you'd be asking some questions, too.

All knowledge is great to have
but not all knowledge is going to improve your game. Beginner photography should be about taking photos and printing them
1 week and students should be in the dark fumbling around cause ain't no kid going to read himself a master

I spent a semester in HS beginner photography ..sure we all did
I printed a couple shots? Not sure I was taught all that much at all, frankly. Not sure how I knew where to put the negative holder in the beginning ..probably found out where it goes in about the first 2 minutes of standing in front of the enlarger clueless. ?

Too much time spent looking at slides of old masters work and writing our thoughts on nude/naked
Most of those kids thought it was a joke and I bet a handful never printed a damn thing.
Give an overview of camera operations and set em free
When they mess up they'll want to know why
the answers will then be heard
Go in-depth on their butts and the crap is flooding out of their ears
you blame ADD and so now you've got a slew of doped up kids in the class that still don't actually learn anything

If I'm paying to be taught how to play golf I had better not see one slide presentation on Ben Hogan
Save that crap for advanced students wanting inspiration/something to aspire to



How hard is it to walk over with a student and set em straight when they have a problem
It ain't like you're not going over
proper terminology is needed for that?
The terminology will sink in as they progress

Johnny, what do we call that little black knob thing? OK? You go and research this on your diagram and then when you have it all figured out and can ask properly I'll come and help you. Dog Obedience

You're going to take up weeks of class to master this insignificant stuff?
How is knowing the proper name of the negative carrier going to help him in getting it set correctly?


It's piss poor when failing students go to other students in order to have a shot at learning something

I never said I refuse to be taught
I soak up everything I can
I won't play the games necessary to look good on paper

"Everyone, of course, is an expert on education; after all, everyone has been in school."
So the experts are? ..Thoooose who have gonnne to school to become an expert?
Who gave the professor his degree? God?
Come on, dude. Your entire post reads like a quote taken from Readers Digest

 

[sun of sand]

Does not the 23CII filter drawer have a closure, a hatch? Dan

I guess you'll never make a decent photograph.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Sun of sand,

As the brother of a professional driving instructor, who is married to a professional golf instructor, I can tell you that they do hand out diagrams of how to hit a golf ball. They also show, with diagrams, why you should hit a golf ball this way, not that way. As far as I can tell, all students do read the literature because it shows the science of the system.

Before you get to take your first lesson in an automobile, you will be handed quite a few sheets of paper. You may be surprised to know that many of the diagrams show the clutch pedal, brake pedal, throttle pedal and various other bits and pieces which facilitate the reasonable safe operation of a vehicle. Before you even start to drive a vehicle, you must show a written test that you at least understand which pedal is which and things like that.

I take it that you learnt to drive a car by hopping in and bouncing from one side of the street to the other!

When I teach people to do darkroom work, the first thing I do is give them some written material with diagrams listing various pieces of equipment and their features. The enlarger is one of them and it is broken up into various pieces which their knowledge of becomes more important to them later on down the track.

Sort of like primary school, you don't understand why you have to learn your times table and how to read and write. For most people the realisation of why you did primary school, comes when you are doing secondary school.

One other aspect, which is unknown, is the age of the student and how many students in a class. If you are doing a one to one lesson, then you may not need something like this. If you are teaching 20 to 30 students at a time, then this is a more practical method of imparting knowledge in a bulk manner.

Mick.

 

[MattKing]

The ironic thing about this thread, is that knowledge about what each part of an enlarger is called will aid someone immeasurably in getting help from the internet.

Just think what difficulties Tsunade would have if he asked a question here about the proper use of the whatchamacallit - you know that thing at the end of the doohickey.

Knowing what things are called aids in communication, and learning.

Matt

 

[sun of sand]

Sun of sand,

As the brother of a professional driving instructor, who is married to a professional golf instructor, I can tell you that they do hand out diagrams of how to hit a golf ball. They also show, with diagrams, why you should hit a golf ball this way, not that way. As far as I can tell, all students do read the literature because it shows the science of the system.

Before you get to take your first lesson in an automobile, you will be handed quite a few sheets of paper. You may be surprised to know that many of the diagrams show the clutch pedal, brake pedal, throttle pedal and various other bits and pieces which facilitate the reasonable safe operation of a vehicle. Before you even start to drive a vehicle, you must show a written test that you at least understand which pedal is which and things like that.

I take it that you learnt to drive a car by hopping in and bouncing from one side of the street to the other!

When I teach people to do darkroom work, the first thing I do is give them some written material with diagrams listing various pieces of equipment and their features. The enlarger is one of them and it is broken up into various pieces which their knowledge of becomes more important to them later on down the track.

Sort of like primary school, you don't understand why you have to learn your times table and how to read and write. For most people the realisation of why you did primary school, comes when you are doing secondary school.

One other aspect, which is unknown, is the age of the student and how many students in a class. If you are doing a one to one lesson, then you may not need something like this. If you are teaching 20 to 30 students at a time, then this is a more practical method of imparting knowledge in a bulk manner.

Mick.

Not a golf instructor I'd see. You can't teach golf with diagrams anymore than you can teach someone how to shoot a 3 pointer with a diagram. Sorry.
performance padding. Golfers are nuts and fall for anything. You may teach someone how something is supposed to be or what is ideal or how another does it or whatever but it's pointless beyond showing the student that you did SOMETHING at the end of it all so that they don't sue your ass
"..why you should hit a golf ball this way, not that way."
I'd be careful using the word SHOULD. Not exactly sure in which way this is meant but in no way is there a definite correct and wrong way to hit a ball.
Science of the system is something out of PGA telecasts
Novice players shouldn't be in the classroom. Advanced, sure. Not arguing that point.
Also not talking about driving a car where there is substantial risk to yourself and others.
Plenty of young kids learn how to drive on the farm and I highly doubt any of them receive diagrams. Farmer Bill becomes teacher and gives good old fashioned 1:1
I'm not 15 years old

Driving was not very difficult for me but I of course went through everything everyone has to
You pass a simple test and get your permit. Not really enough if you ask me
Lets not lie about the difficulty in obtaining a license
Driving a car is not a sport or an art
it is in the matter of a few seconds a matter of life and death
That is certainly one thing you should be spending that kind of time on before you are even allowed on the road
We don't
Why not? 16 year olds on the road? Fu*k that nonsense.

"Sort of like primary school, you don't understand why you have to learn your times table and how to read and write. For most people the realisation of why you did primary school, comes when you are doing secondary school."
and yet so many are illiterate ..even ones somehow passed HS have difficulty
I don't remember being read shakespeare at 5 an awful lot
I remember lots of bedtime stories

"imparting knowledge in a bulk manner."
that says it all. Our educational system is like Wal-Mart.
Always Low Standards
Always

Just try to get our children the basics, I guess.
Lots of smart kids out there ..They don't need a lot of help
Others do and don't receive it
Teaching to the majority. ...performance padding?




Drive Safely

 

[sun of sand]

The ironic thing about this thread, is that knowledge about what each part of an enlarger is called will aid someone immeasurably in getting help from the internet.

Just think what difficulties Tsunade would have if he asked a question here about the proper use of the whatchamacallit - you know that thing at the end of the doohickey.

Knowing what things are called aids in communication, and learning.

Matt

If you're asking for help on such a specific thing you wouldn't likely call it a whatchamacallit
You'd describe it to the best of your ability
Which would in this instance pretty much give you the proper terminology for most
That doesn't matter
The description alone would almost always work if the audience is receptive enough
If it doesn't you likely don't know enough about what you're asking about which means you're biting off more than you can chew at that point, anyway
as in all help would be useless to you because you couldn't find which suggestion is the one you need to run with

you have to be interested in order to learn
you cannot be spoon-fed everything

 

[Removed Account]

The poor guy just wanted a diagram of the Beseler 23CII

 

[rwyoung]

Other than the possibility that the diagram he originally got for the 23cII having slightly different terms (i.e. filter "hatch" vs. "drawer"), Jason's reply was pretty good. Best of luck to him after our little tangential tirade and keep better track of your notes!

 

[pauliej]

Well, now that THAT is all settled, I hope he got the information he was asking about and passes his course. With flying colors too!

paulie

 

[DBP]

With flying colors too!

I don't know, sounded like a basic darkroom course, so maybe that should be "with smooth tonality".

 

[BobNewYork]

You have to be impressed with the kid taking that trouble - and abuse- to pass the test. Unfortunately, I think after this he'll go strictly digital.

Bob

 

[JBrunner]

You have to be impressed with the kid taking that trouble - and abuse- to pass the test. Unfortunately, I think after this he'll go strictly digital.

Bob

Nah, and as for the baseless ad hominem attack on the poor teacher, I say Hey!!! Here's a teacher giving lessons on FILM!!!, Giving a test on an ENLARGER!!! Kudos!!! Keep it up!!! And thank you!!!!

 

[rwyoung]

Dead Link Removed