Strange problem with my developed film

[madNbad]

Generally directly away from the front of my body (i.e. perpendicular to my torso). I believe I had the lens cap in place when loading this roll as well.


I close the baseplate without advancing any frames. Once the baseplate is secure, I advance one frame and then take up the slack in the cassette. Then I advance one additional frame and start shooting. Because I had this happen on a previous roll, I may have advanced two frames instead of just one after taking up the slack to try and avoid the issue, but I can't recall for sure.

Apparently, you are loading the camera correctly so it's either Ilford's fault or gremlins.

 

[logan2z]

Apparently, you are loading the camera correctly so it's either Ilford's fault or gremlins.

I'm going with a light leak or gremlins . I've recently loaded lots of HP5+ in other cameras (Leicas, Nikons, Pentax) and have never experienced this with any of them. In fact I've shot several rolls of HP5+ in this M2 in the last few months and only started to notice this issue recently.

 

[madNbad]

I'm going with a light leak or gremlins . I've recently loaded lots of HP5+ in other cameras (Leicas, Nikons, Pentax) and have never experienced this with any of them. In fact I've shot several rolls of HP5+ in this M2 in the last few months and only started to notice this issue recently.

Even with factory service, it's still a sixty year old camera and something has come loose. If you're dealing with Leica in Wetzlar, their customer service is good. Kinda a shame it may need another trip halfway around the world but it's worth your time to contact them.
I loved my M2. Had to sell it to help fund a home improvement project. The real kicker was it was two weeks after it came back from Don Goldberg. Somebody got a really good deal.

 

[logan2z]

Even with factory service, it's still a sixty year old camera and something has come loose. If you're dealing with Leica in Wetzlar, their customer service is good. Kinda a shame it may need another trip halfway around the world but it's worth your time to contact them.

I've already started the ball rolling with them. Let's see how it goes. This camera already went back once for another unrelated issue immediately after it's major overhaul and it took 3 months to get it back

 

[Trask]

Somewhere in the deepest darkest crevices of my memory, I remember reading a post (probably here) about a Leica camera that someone had repaired that somehow leaked light in through the rangefinder area.
Maybe try opening the back, leaving the shutter closed, and shine a bright mini-maglite around the rangefinder and top cover area from the front.
If any light shows up in the film area, that would indicate where the problem is.
Hope this helps.

You remember correctly -- but in my experience that's a problem that has primarily plagued Leica M5 cameras, including my own. I've not had similar problems with either my M3 or my M2. My bet is that its a problem with the film advance teeth not engaging properly with the film after it is loaded. It's not easy to judge exactly how much film to pull out of the cassette after the film tongue has been placed into the loading slot on the take-up spool - to short and it's tough to slide/load the film into the camera, too much and it may hover over the film advance teeth and perhaps engage only sporadically. I'll be curious, like many, to know the ultimate reason.

 

[madNbad]

One thing I have noticed with this camera is that, when the film is just about fully rewound, it takes quite a bit of force to get the film pulled free of the takeup spool.

I’m beginning to think the two problems are connected. Something in the transport is slipping at the beginning of the roll and seizing at the end of the rewind. If it was a light leak, it would show on more frames. Check if you feel any slipping or binding when advancing the first few frames. Another suggestion before sending it off, try a fresh roll from another manufacturer just to eliminate the film as the culprit.

 

[madNbad]

Out of curiosity, is your M2 a lever or button rewind?

 

[logan2z]

Out of curiosity, is your M2 a lever or button rewind?

It's a lever rewind.

 

[logan2z]

ICheck if you feel any slipping or binding when advancing the first few frames.

I haven't noticed anything like that, but I'll watch for it again the next time I load the camera.

Another suggestion before sending it off, try a fresh roll from another manufacturer just to eliminate the film as the culprit.

That's definitely worth a try.

Just as another data point, I developed another roll tonight that I shot with the camera this past weekend. There is a less dramatic fogging at the start of the roll , but still a couple of thin dark smears' across the short side of the film. This time, however, it didn't affect any of the pictures on the roll.

 

[logan2z]

Quick update: I just developed another roll of the same film (HP5+) shot with a different camera and the same thing happened - some sort of fogging of the leader up to and including the first frame. All other frames look ok, as far as I can tell (the film is still hanging to dry).

One thing I didn't mention earlier in this thread: I don't fully rewind the film into the cassette but I leave the leader out so that I can trim the corners in daylight before loading it onto the reel. I also prefer to load the reel directly from the cassette rather than opening the cassette and taking the film roll out in the changing bag. One thing that @250swb suggested to me on another forum is that this could lead to light piping. I thought that was pretty rare and only affected films with a polyester base. Also, as soon as I unload the film from the camera, I put it right into the black opaque canister that the film comes in, so the film cassette is not exposed to light with the leader sticking out for more than a few seconds. I've been doing this same thing for quite a while now and have never had this issue crop up.

I'll guess I'll shoot a roll of a different film and see if this is somehow related to the batch of HP5 I'm using.

I guess the good news is there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with my M2.

 

[mshchem]

Quick update: I just developed another roll of the same film (HP5+) shot with a different camera and the same thing happened - some sort of fogging of the leader up to and including the first frame. All other frames look ok, as far as I can tell (the film is still hanging to dry).

One thing I didn't mention earlier in this thread: I don't fully rewind the film into the cassette but I leave the leader out so that I can trim the corners in daylight before loading it onto the reel. I also prefer to load the reel directly from the cassette rather than opening the cassette and taking the film roll out in the changing bag. One thing that @250swb suggested to me on another forum is that this could lead to light piping. I thought that was pretty rare and only affected films with a polyester base. Also, as soon as I unload the film from the camera, I put it right into the black opaque canister that the film comes in, so the film cassette is not exposed to light with the leader sticking out for more than a few seconds. I've been doing this same thing for quite a while now and have never had this issue crop up.

I'll guess I'll shoot a roll of a different film and see if this is somehow related to the batch of HP5 I'm using.

I guess the good news is there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with my M2.

Aha! I suspect that you are getting some light leaking in around the felt. At least your M2 doesn’t need more work.

 

[logan2z]

Aha! I suspect that you are getting some light leaking in around the felt. At least your M2 doesn’t need more work.

If it is a leak at the light trap, I wonder why this would have just started to occur recently? I haven't changed the way I handle the film cassette during loading/unloading.

 

[mshchem]

If it is a leak at the light trap, I wonder why this would have just started to occur recently? I haven't changed the way I handle the film cassette during loading/unloading.

Lousy cassettes from Ilford's supplier, maybe?

 

[logan2z]

Lousy cassettes from Ilford's supplier, maybe?

Could be, I suppose.

 

[koraks]

I don't fully rewind the film into the cassette but I leave the leader out so that I can trim the corners in daylight before loading it onto the reel.

I do this all the time, including with HP5+, but I use that film in bulk load only. It's not very susceptible to light piping at all.

 

[logan2z]

I do this all the time, including with HP5+, but I use that film in bulk load only. It's not very susceptible to light piping at all.

I didn't think it was either, but it was suggested to me as a potential cause of this so I thought it was worth mentioning the way I handle the film while unloading the camera/loading the developing reel.

I suppose a batch of faulty cassettes could be the cause, although I figured at the outset of this that it was unlikely. I've reached out to Ilford to get their thoughts. In the meantime, I'll shoot a roll of something else and see what happens.

 

[koraks]

Reaching out to Ilford was a sensible thing to do; perhaps they recognize this issue. I find it puzzling!

 

[mshchem]

Leaving the tail out is a common practice, this shouldn't cause any problems, especially with acetate film stocks. The last installment of Smarter Everyday's visit to EK factory in Rochester NY shows sheets of cassette material before forming. Apparently the felt is applied with adhesive (hot melt?) after the metal is printed.

Seems quite odd, the pattern on the film. Analog is fun.

 

[Sharktooth]

Quick update: I just developed another roll of the same film (HP5+) shot with a different camera and the same thing happened - some sort of fogging of the leader up to and including the first frame. All other frames look ok, as far as I can tell (the film is still hanging to dry).

One thing I didn't mention earlier in this thread: I don't fully rewind the film into the cassette but I leave the leader out so that I can trim the corners in daylight before loading it onto the reel. I also prefer to load the reel directly from the cassette rather than opening the cassette and taking the film roll out in the changing bag. One thing that @250swb suggested to me on another forum is that this could lead to light piping. I thought that was pretty rare and only affected films with a polyester base. Also, as soon as I unload the film from the camera, I put it right into the black opaque canister that the film comes in, so the film cassette is not exposed to light with the leader sticking out for more than a few seconds. I've been doing this same thing for quite a while now and have never had this issue crop up.

I'll guess I'll shoot a roll of a different film and see if this is somehow related to the batch of HP5 I'm using.

I guess the good news is there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with my M2.

Since this has now happened when using a different camera, you should also now consider how you handle the film for processing. If you load the reels in a changing bag, then that's another potential place for light leaks. Changing bags deteriorate over time, and this has been a problem seen here in other threads.

 

[logan2z]

Since this has now happened when using a different camera, you should also now consider how you handle the film for processing. If you load the reels in a changing bag, then that's another potential place for light leaks. Changing bags deteriorate over time, and this has been a problem seen here in other threads.

I considered that, but I'd expect a leak in the changing bag to affect more than just the start of the film strip.

 

[Sharktooth]

There have been multiple threads here on this site where people have found the changing bag to be a problem, even though they were "certain" that it was perfectly fine. Changing bags work great, until they don't. The rubbery material coating will degrade over time, and they'll all eventually fail.

Load your next film in the changing bag at night with all the lights off, to ensure that there's no chance for light to get in even if the changing bag has gone bad.

I'd say the odds are at 80% that this is a bad changing bag issue. The odds of it being a film issue are much less than 1%.

 

[logan2z]

There have been multiple threads here on this site where people have found the changing bag to be a problem, even though they were "certain" that it was perfectly fine. Changing bags work great, until they don't. The rubbery material coating will degrade over time, and they'll all eventually fail.

Load your next film in the changing bag at night with all the lights off, to ensure that there's no chance for light to get in even if the changing bag has gone bad.

I'd say the odds are at 80% that this is a bad changing bag issue. The odds of it being a film issue are much less than 1%.

It's certainly worth a try. I'll be loading another roll today and I'll do it with the changing bag in the dark.

 

[koraks]

I considered that, but I'd expect a leak in the changing bag to affect more than just the start of the film strip.

I agree.

I'd say the odds are at 80% that this is a bad changing bag issue.

I don't see it that way. The pattern doesn't seem consistent at all with a light leak in a changing bag. It just doesn't add up.

 

[Don_ih]

Are you advancing any frames with the bottom off and the back closed? That might result in the partial fogging seen in your strip.
I don't see how it could have anything to do with a change bag - the rest of the film would exhibit the fogging. The start of the film is at the centre of the spiral - any light that hit that while in a change bag would also hit the rest.

 

[logan2z]

Are you advancing any frames with the bottom off and the back closed?

No, I don't advance the film until the back is closed and the bottom affixed.