Strange problem with my developed film

[logan2z]

I've seen this issue on a few recent rolls of HP5+ when shot with my Leica M2. The first bit of the developed leader is completely opaque as I would expect, but then there is what appears to be a couple of frame widths of mixed clear/opaque followed by the first complete frame. The first frame (or two on my last roll) has what appears to be some fogging nearest the leader. Every frame after that is fine, the rebate is clear (except for the expected edge markings) and the tail end of the film is clear as I would expect. At first I thought this might have been caused by insufficient fixing, but I tested the film clearing time of the fixer and it was 1 minute and I fixed the film for a full 5 minutes.

This problem only ever seems to happen with my M2, none of the film shot with my other cameras exhibits this. FWIW, this camera was recently given a complete overhaul at Leica Wetzlar so should be in good working order.

Another theory of mine is that, since the M2 has the old Leica loading system (not the quick loading system introduced with the M4), then perhaps I'm not advancing enough of the fogged leader before starting to shoot actual frames. But that doesn't explain why there is this mix of clear/opaque film after the initial part of the leader - I'd expect either all clear or all opaque.

Has anybody ever seen something like this and could suggest a possible cause?

I've attached an image of the negative strip to help illustrate the problem. Note that the start of the negative strip is towards the bottom of the image (the roll is currently hanging to dry).

 

[koraks]

This problem only ever seems to happen with my M2, none of the film shot with my other cameras exhibits this

So it's logically related to this particular camera. Maybe Leitz overlooked something when working on your camera.

 

[logan2z]

Maybe Leitz overlooked something when working on your camera.

That's entirely possible. I'm trying to understand what sort of camera fault might cause this particular issue. If it was a light leak, for example, I'd expect it to affect more than just the start of the roll.

 

[koraks]

Yes, I agree on that. My first thought was that it might be related to failure of the felt light trap on the 35mm cassette used, but I see that it's factory-spooled HP5+ and that's very unlikely to suffer from such a defect. Unless of course there's something about the camera that forces the cassette open while it's still exposed to light. I'm not familiar with the M2 so I don't know if that's even physically possible.

 

[Don_ih]

The only possibility I can see is that the shutter is letting in some light in the overlap as you advance it. But that should impact the whole roll - unless it's something that only happens after the camera has been sitting around not-cocked.

I assume you advance a frame after you take a shot.

I assume you don't advance the shutter after you get to the end of the roll and rewind.

Maybe flip up the back and watch the shutter with the camera held up to light to see if you can see any gap?

Another possibility - but only if you don't have a lens on the camera when putting the film in - is there might be a light leak that doesn't let any significant amount of light in unless there's no lens on the camera. I had that happen with a IIIb that was serviced (had to send it back).

Oh, another possibility: there may be a light leak that gets covered when you put the camera in a case. Not a possibility if you don't use a case, though.

 

[logan2z]

Yes, I agree on that. My first thought was that it might be related to failure of the felt light trap on the 35mm cassette used, but I see that it's factory-spooled HP5+ and that's very unlikely to suffer from such a defect. Unless of course there's something about the camera that forces the cassette open while it's still exposed to light. I'm not familiar with the M2 so I don't know if that's even physically possible.

I don't think there's anything about the M2 that could cause that to happen.

One thing I have noticed with this camera is that, when the film is just about fully rewound, it takes quite a bit of force to get the film pulled free of the takeup spool. The M2 has the old film loading system that uses a removable takeup spool. The film leader is inserted into a slot in the metal takeup spool and it's held pretty tightly in there - at least in my example. Is it possible that this 'exposure' early in the roll is caused by stress on the film as it's being pulled free of the takeup spool during rewind? Maybe a crazy theory...

 

[Don_ih]

Is it possible that this 'exposure' early in the roll is caused by stress on the film as it's being pulled free of the takeup spool during rewind?

No.

 

[koraks]

Is it possible that this 'exposure' early in the roll is caused by stress on the film as it's being pulled free of the takeup spool during rewind?

Well, I'm inclined to side with @Don_ih on this, at least in the sense that it sounds highly unlikely to me given the fogging pattern. Fog due to mechanical stress on the emulsion is very real, but it tends to be more localized. I can't really think of a way to make film fog in this way with mechanical means.

The pattern of the fog suggests the following:
* The fogging is due to light; not heat or mechanical stress
* There is probably one light source, possibly strip-like in nature, and the light is unfocused
* The fog pattern results from the film being transported past the fogging light source, resulting in the pattern that extends longitudinally along the film
* For some reason, the film is shielded from this fogging light source after a certain time - potentially it's shielded by itself.
Given the observations/deductions above, I arrived at something related to the felt light trap in the cassette. But I admit there's room for debate on the accuracy of those points and also for additional/rival explanations.

 

[awty]

Do you advance 3 frames after loading before shooting?

 

[TomR55]

FWIW, a while back I saw something very similar to what the OP included in the original post. This was a 36 exposure roll of Ilford HP5+ exposed in an M4. The M4 uses the quick-load mechanism and that might be relevant to the question of the role of the take-up spool. (I have also used an M2 (for nearly 25 years, almost daily) and never recalled seeing this particular problem.)

I shoot and process both HP5+ and FP4+ on a weekly basis. I don't believe that I've ever seen this pattern until recently .... I'm thinking ONLY the HP5+ but I will be on the lookout should it re-occur.

 

[logan2z]

Do you advance 3 frames after loading before shooting?

Yes.

 

[AnselMortensen]

Somewhere in the deepest darkest crevices of my memory, I remember reading a post (probably here) about a Leica camera that someone had repaired that somehow leaked light in through the rangefinder area.
Maybe try opening the back, leaving the shutter closed, and shine a bright mini-maglite around the rangefinder and top cover area from the front.
If any light shows up in the film area, that would indicate where the problem is.
Hope this helps.

 

[Kino]

Have you tried putting on a lens cap or blocking the lens when advancing those 3 frames?

 

[logan2z]

Have you tried putting on a lens cap or blocking the lens when advancing those 3 frames?

I believe I did have the lens cap on while loading the camera/advancing the film. I loaded the camera while in the shade as well.

 

[logan2z]

Somewhere in the deepest darkest crevices of my memory, I remember reading a post (probably here) about a Leica camera that someone had repaired that somehow leaked light in through the rangefinder area.
Maybe try opening the back, leaving the shutter closed, and shine a bright mini-maglite around the rangefinder and top cover area from the front.
If any light shows up in the film area, that would indicate where the problem is.
Hope this helps.

Thanks, I'll give that a try. I've got a fresh roll of film loaded in the camera now but I haven't shot any frames with it so I can rewind it/remove it.

 

[Tel]

Thanks, I'll give that a try. I've got a fresh roll of film loaded in the camera now but I haven't shot any frames with it so I can rewind it/remove it.

That makes sense to me. Looking at the shot of the negative, the dark blob extends outside the frame lines both horizontally and vertically, so it can't be coming through the gate from the shutter side. And it is darkest on the bottom edge (really the top in the camera since the image is inverted). Those things say to me that it is most likely coming at the film from behind and high up in the camera. The vertical streaks indicate a leak that is in the shape of a vertical line but gets blurred laterally when the film moves.

The fact that it only affects the initial frames could be a result of ambient light coming over your shoulder as you're advancing the film during loading. When you're making a shot, your head would block the light source. A lot of speculation, but worth testing in a dark room with a flashlight....

 

[titrisol]

Thanks, I'll give that a try. I've got a fresh roll of film loaded in the camera now but I haven't shot any frames with it so I can rewind it/remove it.

Perfect opportunity, now that you have fresh roll. Advance film (blank frame), leave it in a bright place, shoot (with the cap), advance, shot another with the cap right away.
If there is any light leak it should show in those frames

 

[BradS]

The fact that it only happens on the very first frame after the leader seems to implicate something to do with the loading process - not the camera. When loading an M2, frame zero gets some variable exposure depending on the back door, lens cap, ambient light, etc...

 

[madNbad]

Here’s a couple of tips for loading the M2/3. When you insert the leader onto the spool, place the end of the leader against the spool then slide it under the tab. It’s much easier than trying to push it under from the end. When the leader is in place you should see the wind direction arrow. The freshly loaded film will show all the dots.
Holding the cassette in one hand and the spool in the other, slide it into place and make sure the cassette is seated. Replace the baseplate and enjoy.
Your images look like the film is bunching up when loading the take up spool causing stress marks. Try the method I described and see if that helps. It is a bit different than the rapid load system but many that used the M2 for journalism would often carry an extra spool with the leader attached for a fast film change.

 

[logan2z]

Here’s a couple of tips for loading the M2/3. When you insert the leader onto the spool, place the end of the leader against the spool then slide it under the tab. It’s much easier than trying to push it under from the end. When the leader is in place you should see the wind direction arrow. The freshly loaded film will show all the dots.
Holding the cassette in one hand and the spool in the other, slide it into place and make sure the cassette is seated. Replace the baseplate and enjoy.
Your images look like the film is bunching up when loading the take up spool causing stress marks. Try the method I described and see if that helps. It is a bit different than the rapid load system but many that used the M2 for journalism would often carry an extra spool with the leader attached for a fast film change.

If I'm understanding your tips, I think I'm doing it exactly as you describe. I don't believe the film is bunching up when I'm loading the takeup spool. If it is bunching up at all, I think it would only be at the very end of the leader and not so far along as to effect the portion of the film that is getting fogged.

 

[cliveh]

So it's logically related to this particular camera. Maybe Leitz overlooked something when working on your camera.

A fault on a M2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Don_ih]

A fault on a M2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No no - he meant the technician might have made a mistake - there's nothing wrong with an M2.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that the M2 has a fundamental design flaw. If that were the case, I figure we would have known by now.

 

[madNbad]

If I'm understanding your tips, I think I'm doing it exactly as you describe. I don't believe the film is bunching up when I'm loading the takeup spool. If it is bunching up at all, I think it would only be at the very end of the leader and not so far along as to effect the portion of the film that is getting fogged.

After loading the camera, where are you pointing the lens for the two advancing exposures? Next time you load the camera, take a few exposures of something and see if the problem persist. There isn't any fogging, so you're getting the baseplate secured before advancing the film. The exposed part of the leader ends at it's normal place. It's the two continuous frames, without the normal spacing breaks that are confusing.
If it was your development, it would be more than just the first few frames. If it was a problem with the camera advancing, it would happen in other places. Do you take up the slack in the cassette before advancing the first frames or after?

 

[logan2z]

After loading the camera, where are you pointing the lens for the two advancing exposures?

Generally directly away from the front of my body (i.e. perpendicular to my torso). I believe I had the lens cap in place when loading this roll as well.

Do you take up the slack in the cassette before advancing the first frames or after?

I close the baseplate without advancing any frames. Once the baseplate is secure, I advance two frames and then take up the slack in the cassette. Then I advance one additional frame and start shooting. Because I had this happen on a previous roll, I may have advanced an additional frame after taking up the slack to try and avoid the issue, but I can't recall for sure.