Strange development marks near edge of frame

koraks · Jan 31, 2024

lamerko said:
letting in a lot of light, similar to your problem.

John Wiegerink said:
you will know whether either the first or second curtain is the issue. If you see that smudge, you know one of your curtains have a thin spot.

This is minus density in the negative, so not a light leak or a thin shutter curtain etc.

Since it's sharply defined and minus density, I still think it's fouling of the emulsion side that's present before the film goes into the developer. The fouling possibly washes away in further processing, but lingers long enough to impede development in this spots. Maybe something greasy or waxy. It could even be something that sticks to the non-emulsion side of the film and gets imprinted on the emulsion side as the film is rolled up; something like a lubricant on the finishing equipment.

@Nikanon, is it always on the same type of film, or does the issue also occur on other brands & types?

Sirius Glass · Jan 31, 2024

John Wiegerink said:
Whoops, I'm sorry I missed the fact that the OP sees this in other cameras.

Then it could be the tank reels. I had that problem on 135 and 120 reels which adjust to both sizes.

John Wiegerink · Jan 31, 2024

koraks said:
This is minus density in the negative, so not a light leak or a thin shutter curtain etc.

Since it's sharply defined and minus density, I still think it's fouling of the emulsion side that's present before the film goes into the developer. The fouling possibly washes away in further processing, but lingers long enough to impede development in this spots. Maybe something greasy or waxy. It could even be something that sticks to the non-emulsion side of the film and gets imprinted on the emulsion side as the film is rolled up; something like a lubricant on the finishing equipment.

@Nikanon, is it always on the same type of film, or does the issue also occur on other brands & types?

Oh my, I'm really getting senile in my old age! My right palm just smacked my forehead. Ouuuuuuch! Boy, this is a hard one to solve for sure.

koraks · Feb 1, 2024

It sure is, it's got me stumped pretty much, too!

Nikanon · Feb 1, 2024

Sirius Glass said:
Then it could be the tank reels. I had that problem on 135 and 120 reels which adjust to both sizes.

I thought this as well and cleaned them thoroughly to be sure, but it still occurs. Haven't had this problem on them otherwise in the past 15 years (metal hewes)

Nikanon · Feb 1, 2024

John Wiegerink said:
Oh my, I'm really getting senile in my old age! My right palm just smacked my forehead. Ouuuuuuch! Boy, this is a hard one to solve for sure.

I've solved enough problems that this one is driving me nuts!!

Nikanon · Feb 1, 2024

koraks said:
This is minus density in the negative, so not a light leak or a thin shutter curtain etc.

Since it's sharply defined and minus density, I still think it's fouling of the emulsion side that's present before the film goes into the developer. The fouling possibly washes away in further processing, but lingers long enough to impede development in this spots. Maybe something greasy or waxy. It could even be something that sticks to the non-emulsion side of the film and gets imprinted on the emulsion side as the film is rolled up; something like a lubricant on the finishing equipment.

@Nikanon, is it always on the same type of film, or does the issue also occur on other brands & types?

I have seen it on different brands of film, but as of right now only on Agfaphoto APX 400, I reached out to them to see if they had any idea as well

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2024

Nikanon said:
I thought this as well and cleaned them thoroughly to be sure, but it still occurs. Haven't had this problem on them otherwise in the past 15 years (metal hewes)

Those marks still appear in my Jobo reels regardless of how hard I scrub them. I do not recall having that problem with Hewes reels.

foc · Feb 1, 2024

@Nikanon Can you post a few images of the negatives from the other films with similar marks, please?

Maybe it's just me but when I looked at the OP's image of the negative, the mark/line goes as far as the negative image area edge but not onto the film space between the images.

koraks · Feb 1, 2024

foc said:
the mark/line goes as far as the negative image area edge but not onto the film space between the images.

We're looking at different things, I think. This is the apparent issue:

Nikanon said:
I have seen it on different brands of film

Which ones? Maybe it's manufacturer-specific.

Nikanon · Feb 1, 2024

koraks said:
We're looking at different things, I think. This is the apparent issue:
View attachment 361820

Which ones? Maybe it's manufacturer-specific.

This is the mark, yes, the other one is a contrail in the image

foc · Feb 4, 2024

koraks said:
We're looking at different things, I think. This is the apparent issue:

Nikanon said:
This is the mark, yes, the other one is a contrail in the image

I should wear my glasses more often and read the post !!!

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

Months later, It appears I am still getting these weird marks. Must be some kind of clumping ? I really do not know. This is on Ilford FP4 this time with a fresh batch of Xtol. Overall the image detail shows there is some clumping all around in the trees and such as well, somehow related??

Randy Stewart · Apr 16, 2024

This really looks like partial fingerprints on the emulsion where the film is loaded on a Paterson type plastic reel, and where the emulsion is loaded facing the outside of the reel, sort of reverse curl. That would be an odd way to load that type of reel, and I think the poster said he was wearing gloves. If so, it's a mystery to me.

grain elevator · Apr 16, 2024

Could the gloves you use to load film in reels be dirty or get dirty from residues on equipment you use? Maybe try cleaning everything you use, film can opener, scissors, darkroom door handle, light switch, reels, dark bag... Or do you rub your face after putting the gloves on?
Or, a very long shot, were your cameras serviced by the same shop and might have an excess of grease in them that gets on the film?

koraks · Apr 16, 2024

Randy Stewart said:
where the emulsion is loaded facing the outside of the reel

Yeah, that makes it kind of unlikely.

It's a puzzling problem for sure.

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

Randy Stewart said:
This really looks like partial fingerprints on the emulsion where the film is loaded on a Paterson type plastic reel, and where the emulsion is loaded facing the outside of the reel, sort of reverse curl. That would be an odd way to load that type of reel, and I think the poster said he was wearing gloves. If so, it's a mystery to me.

I am religiously wearing gloves now since this problem first appeared. They are the disposable cotton photo gloves that you throw out after a couple uses and im careful not to contaminate them with oils

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

grain elevator said:
Could the gloves you use to load film in reels be dirty or get dirty from residues on equipment you use? Maybe try cleaning everything you use, film can opener, scissors, darkroom door handle, light switch, reels, dark bag... Or do you rub your face after putting the gloves on?
Or, a very long shot, were your cameras serviced by the same shop and might have an excess of grease in them that gets on the film?

Ill take any shot! No these are shot in everything from an Nikon F2 to a Leica MP neither of which have received service

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

koraks said:
Yeah, that makes it kind of unlikely.

It's a puzzling problem for sure.

My only thought thus far is that it could possibly have to do with build up on the reel, since it is always near the edge of the film in the image area and the reels do sit closer to the image area. Or potentially something to do with developer where the bromide isnt fully mixed in an clumping in places to prohibit development? Or a combination of both?

koraks · Apr 16, 2024

Nikanon said:
Or potentially something to do with developer where the bromide isnt fully mixed in an clumping in places to prohibit development?

I understand what you mean, but bromide doesn't clump. The bromide in the developer is fully dissolved and extremely mobile. It'll be very difficult (impossible) to replicate this effect with some kind of local bromide buildup.

I can imagine something involving air bubbles conglomerating near the edges of the film spiral, close to the reels, and causing locally reduced developer activity. Still a long shot.

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

koraks said:
I understand what you mean, but bromide doesn't clump. The bromide in the developer is fully dissolved and extremely mobile. It'll be very difficult (impossible) to replicate this effect with some kind of local bromide buildup.

I can imagine something involving air bubbles conglomerating near the edges of the film spiral, close to the reels, and causing locally reduced developer activity. Still a long shot.

Here is a closeup with exaggerated contrast to show more of the shape of what im getting now. I just took a second look at how the film sits in the reels (hewes) and the image area is really pretty far from the metal for this to be caused by this as far as I can tell. This particular roll was Ilford FP4 shot at 200 developed at 68F in Xtol 1:1 for 13 minutes. To me this grain looks kind of clumpy, but that would mean the larger black spots are actually clear on the negative. I just cannot figure why there would be that shape at the top (this is at the top right of this frame, its always about a millimeter from the top edge)

koraks · Apr 16, 2024

It looks like a smear if you look really closely, doesn't it?

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

koraks said:
It looks like a smear if you look really closely, doesn't it?

I was trying to think is there something in the drying process of the film that would cause it, it appears to be a horizontal streak in how it gets larger and smaller. But what would cause LOWER density? I cant think of anything

koraks · Apr 16, 2024

No, me neither. But this 'comet-like' smear could also originate in one of the wet stages of the film. This can be during processing, but also during manufacture. Although in case of the latter, it would be odd/inexplicable for this to occur every time at the same distance from the edge of the film.

Nikanon · Apr 16, 2024

koraks said:
No, me neither. But this 'comet-like' smear could also originate in one of the wet stages of the film. This can be during processing, but also during manufacture. Although in case of the latter, it would be odd/inexplicable for this to occur every time at the same distance from the edge of the film.

The shape isnt always the same and its not always the exact same distance, in my first post on this thread you can see it actually sits right on the edge of the film, and is much denser. BUT it never seems to travel further than it is from the edge in this most recent example. I just do not know what comes into contact with the film there during development to cause such a shape

Strange development marks near edge of frame

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