Strange black spots on neg developed in WD2D+

cmaxwell · Jul 4, 2005

Hi

I tray developed a few sheets of Ilford FP4+ last evening in WD2D+, I used my normal procedure of processing one sheet at a time; I pre-soak 3 minutes in distilled water, continuous agitation in freshly prepared WD2D+ (using distilled water), 30 sec in very dilute stop bath and 4 min in Ilford Rapid Fixer, 1:4. a wash in filtered water and a final dip in a very dilute Edwal LFN solution.

When I inspected the dried negatives this morning, I noticed that one of the negs had some black spots on it. I used a loupe to determine if these spots were dust or something else, I noticed that the spots were on the emulsion side of the negative. I have never encountered spots such as these, the spots were NOT dust or dirt, the spots seemed to be embedded into emulsion. They can be best described as a very, very small black (D-max) spot surrounded by a larger spot, a halo almost, not black, but very dark. there were about 6 of these spots on various parts of the negative, Now the strange part of this is that only one of the five negatives has these spots.

Any idea of what this could possibly be, all the chemicals were fresh.

Robert Brummitt · Jul 4, 2005

what do you mean "Very diluted stop bath"? Not an acid stop? I just use two water baths to slow down the developing and FT4 fixer to stop it. I also place a few drops of an wetting solution to my pre-soak.

Richard Wasserman · Jul 4, 2005

Craig,
I can't help with your problem, but can sympathise. I had the exact same thing happen when I tried WD2D+. I was never able to figure it out even after a prolonged and very nice email conversation with John Wimberley. I eventually gave up and now use Pyrocat HD and love it. WD2D+ is quite a nice developer, but I was never sure when the negatives would have spots on them.

Richard

cmaxwell · Jul 5, 2005

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the info, luckily I had shot extra negatives of this particular still-life so I do have a spot-free negative to work with.

But I'm still quite perplexed about this and your experiences add to the mystery.
I did do some research today on Pyro developers in general and while looking in Gordon Hutchings' "Book of Pyro", I found in the section, Faults in the Negative, on page 44, number 8, a description of my spots. Gordon attributes these to "heavy metal contamination". I'm not sure how my film or chemistry became contaminated, but his description of the spots caused by a heavy metal particle imbedded in the emulsion matches my problem quite closely. My only guess could be the distilled water I was using for the pre-soak and used for mixing the developer could have caused this. But again, the part that makes no sense, is that only one negative out four exhibited this problem.
The intermittent problems are the hardest to diagnose.

So I may try Pyrocat HD, so tell me Richard, are you processing sheet film with this developer and if so, are you using trays or some sort of tank and roller system.

Thanks

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 5, 2005

cmaxwell said:
Hi Richard,

...are you processing sheet film with this developer and if so, are you using trays or some sort of tank and roller system.

Thanks

I process 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 sheet film (Efke 100 and 25, Classic 400 and TMAX 400 TMY) using Pyrocat-HD and either minimal or semi-stand agitation. I currently use two processing methods dependent on the lab working space I have availble. The two methods I currently use are Slosher Trays and BZT type Tubes (hand rolled - to the extent that I agitate). All my negs are clean, undamaged and evenly developed.

Claire Senft · Jul 5, 2005

I have not used w2d2. I have read articles on it that caution about the need for extra careful procedures to assure cleanliness. Since you still have some developer, I assume, thouroughly clean your developing equipment and try a couple more test negatives.

Richard Wasserman · Jul 5, 2005

so tell me Richard, are you processing sheet film with this developer and if so, are you using trays or some sort of tank and roller system.

I use Pyrocat for just about everything from 35mm to 8x10. Roll film gets developed in tanks, while sheet film rides in a Jobo and it all comes out great. I find it to be very consistent and easy to use, plus the prints are beautiful. What more can you ask?

Richard

Guillaume Zuili · Aug 6, 2005

Hi Craig,

I use it and it happens sometime too. But that will not stop me to use it.
I process 35-120-4x5-8x10 on Jobo.
It has a lot of plus:
-Lot better for drum processing than Rollo Pyro.
-Very stable with constant results in comparaison with ABC and PMK (not on jobo for these two) and Rollo.
-A real pleasure to print ! That's after all, the most important thing...

I did 15 negatives last night (Tri-X 8x10). One of them had two dots. I will retouch them on the print.
I don't use acid stop bath, just a water bath, by the way.

I might try one day Pyrocat HD. But I already use WD2D and Rodinal for Stand Dev. I don't need too many soups...

Best regards,
Guillaume

Jorge · Aug 6, 2005

I have heard that iron contamination causes this. If you have a stainless steel stirring paddle or something like that it could be the culprit. Maybe some carry over developer that is contaminated by the stop bath if you are mixing the stop bath with tap water.

johnwimberley · Feb 18, 2006

The spots on the negatives do indeed sound like metal particles. There's always the possibility that the particulates were in the ingredients of the kit, or they could have originated in the plumbing, for instance, old iron pipes.

The suggestion regarding darkroom cleanliness is right on the money. I have developed tens of thousands of large format negatives in pyro, including WD2D+, and have never seen these spots. Are you using tap water to mix either the stock or working solutions? There's several very good reasons I recommend distilled water and the metal particle problem is one of them. If you still insist on using tap water, it should be filtered to 5 microns or better.

I don't know of any reason why pryo in any formula should be more susceptible to this sort of contamination than other developers. It's certainly not a common experience with WD2D+, as I've communicated with many users who haven't reported this kind of problem. I tray process, one sheet at a time, and I'm happy to report the negatives are consistently flawless.

Tony Egan · Jun 25, 2017

I knew I could count on APUG for an explanation of this recent experience of mine! The attached section of a TMAX 400 120 roll film negative is probably an extreme example of black-spotiness. My own fault I guess. I had run out of my usual XTol and had some old A & B solutions of WD2D+ on the shelf so I thought why not give it a go - my guess is probably 4 to 5 years since I mixed it and stored in brown bottles. Both solutions were clear with no sediment and I did a quick daylight dunk to see that development seemed to progress at normal speed. I mixed in tap water and inverted every 15 seconds for 15 seconds in a tank for 10 minutes. Mix was 40mlA+40mlB per 1000ml. The negatives are otherwise lovely and crisp with nice tonal range as long as there is no sky or bright negative spaces!

I was initially intrigued that so much "dust" could have landed and stuck to roll film as I typically load film carefully and keep my equipment clean and well maintained. When I realised it could not possibly be dust I loaded another roll and took 10 shots of blue sky with the RB67 and cut the roll in half and developed half in the same WD2D+ and the other in a new batch of XTol. No spots on the XTOl half but similar spotiness on the WD2D section.

Peter Schrager · Jun 25, 2017

johnwimberley said:
The spots on the negatives do indeed sound like metal particles. There's always the possibility that the particulates were in the ingredients of the kit, or they could have originated in the plumbing, for instance, old iron pipes.

The suggestion regarding darkroom cleanliness is right on the money. I have developed tens of thousands of large format negatives in pyro, including WD2D+, and have never seen these spots. Are you using tap water to mix either the stock or working solutions? There's several very good reasons I recommend distilled water and the metal particle problem is one of them. If you still insist on using tap water, it should be filtered to 5 microns or better.

I don't know of any reason why pryo in any formula should be more susceptible to this sort of contamination than other developers. It's certainly not a common experience with WD2D+, as I've communicated with many users who haven't reported this kind of problem. I tray process, one sheet at a time, and I'm happy to report the negatives are consistently flawless.

Using old developer if an unknown quantity is not helpful. Ice developed hundreds of sheet film in wd2d and they all flawless using tap water. On the other hand the + version of this developer is a total mystery to me.. I tried it and all I got was foam. No negatives worth using
If you want total control with repeatable results use pyrocat mc in glycol

Tony Egan · Jun 25, 2017

Yes, with frequent agitation in a tank it gets very foamy. I have had success in the past with sheet film using WD2D+ but not used it for roll film until recently.

Sirius Glass · Jun 25, 2017

Tony Egan said:
I knew I could count on APUG for an explanation of this recent experience of mine! The attached section of a TMAX 400 120 roll film negative is probably an extreme example of black-spotiness. My own fault I guess. I had run out of my usual XTol and had some old A & B solutions of WD2D+ on the shelf so I thought why not give it a go - my guess is probably 4 to 5 years since I mixed it and stored in brown bottles. Both solutions were clear with no sediment and I did a quick daylight dunk to see that development seemed to progress at normal speed. I mixed in tap water and inverted every 15 seconds for 15 seconds in a tank for 10 minutes. Mix was 40mlA+40mlB per 1000ml. The negatives are otherwise lovely and crisp with nice tonal range as long as there is no sky or bright negative spaces!

I was initially intrigued that so much "dust" could have landed and stuck to roll film as I typically load film carefully and keep my equipment clean and well maintained. When I realised it could not possibly be dust I loaded another roll and took 10 shots of blue sky with the RB67 and cut the roll in half and developed half in the same WD2D+ and the other in a new batch of XTol. No spots on the XTOl half but similar spotiness on the WD2D section.
View attachment 181815 View attachment 181816 View attachment 181818

So I am not the only one who likes XTOL.

Peter Schrager · Jun 25, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
So I am not the only one who likes XTOL.

Xtol is amazing and I use it in medium format
However I can make better negatives for alternate process using a pyro drveloper

Peter Schrager · Jun 25, 2017

It would be great if john wimberley came on here and explained how to properly use the + developer....anyone here using it??

Strange black spots on neg developed in WD2D+

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