Stop Bath.. How important?

[Thomas Bertilsson]

See if you can find an animated gif for that one...

Wait!
Shouldn't you flog (not beat) a dead horse?

 

[clayne]

So we all agree then: water is not the best choice? :-D

 

[Q.G.]

So we all agree then: water is not the best choice? :-D

For many things, water is surprisingly good.
But no. You can't beat, nor flog, a dead horse with water very well.

 

[JPD]

I use water with a dash of 24% pure vinegar for film, except when using a developer containing Sodium carbonate as alkali, to prevent bubbles in the emulsion. (Yes, I've seen it happen! Thousands and thousands of tiny bubbles destroying a 120-roll).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, one thing to add here. Alkaline fixers can be used with stop baths, at least TF-4 can. BTDT. And, alkaline fixers do not worsen wash problems with developing agents, especially if used with a stop. HQ is rendered more soluble in alkaline fixers and thus with the increased swell, they allow for removal of HQ in the normal wash time.

And, to quote Ansel Adams:

"To many workers, the stop bath is merely a splash of acid in a vague amount of water. It should be compounded as directed.", "The Negative", 2nd Edition, Morgan and Morgan, New York, 1962, p81.

Maybe that quote will convince some of you.

PE

 

[Ian Grant]

So we all agree then: water is not the best choice? :-D

After 4 years of processing here in Turkey where I've no darkroom and little storage space I don't think using a water rinse has shortened the life of my fixer noticeably, but I top up replenish it anyway.

Water may not be the optimal choice but it works well enough, I have very consistent tap water temperature (which I work to) and so giving a longer than suggested rinse is usual, my tank needs 2 litres to fill it, so the rinse is erring towards 2 minutes easily.

Some say you shouldn't use a stop bath with a pyro dev, I use Pyrocat and do when in the UK, with no problems.

But if they argue it's OK not to use one with a Pyro dev they can't then say it's necessary with a non Pyro dev it doesn't stack up.

You made a good point that water usage is less with a stop bath, I'd add that I keep mine made up in the UK so just warm it and the fix alongside each other.

It may be with some films stop bath is not the best choice, a water rinse is better as someone posted earlier, I think saying EFKE said not to use one, I've used one with EFKE films since the 70's with no problems.

So Ilford say stop bath is preferred, but water can be used, I take that line which is not quite as strongly put as your "So we all agree then: water is not the best choice? :-D"

Ian

 

[fotch]

Well, I offer a compromise. Mix your water with some stop bath.

 

[Ian Grant]

In answering Clayne I've realised why a stop bath wasn't recommended for films until the advent of 35mm and the first fine grain developers in the 20's and 40's

It's the high carbonate levels in the Pyro developers which were used then at much higher concentrations than say PMK and Pyrocat, dev times were 2-4 minutes. The MQ developers like D72 (originally a plate developer) also contain faor amounts of Carbonate.

So an acid stop bath causes pinholes

Ian

 

[Sirius Glass]

We just have to keep at it a little longer!

Steve

 

[pentaxuser]

"To many workers, the stop bath is merely a splash of acid in a vague amount of water. It should be compounded as directed.",
Maybe that quote will convince some of you.

PE

This has prompted me to ask the following:

1. Should we assume that the stop bath makers dilutions are correct for both paper and film or to be on the safe side should we increase the dilutions for film and if so to what?

2. Can we assume that if the stop bath has a colour indicator for exhaustion then we can use it until that colour change occurs even if the answer to point 1 is to use a lower dilution for film?

It's been a great discussion which I have enjoyed.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[alanrockwood]

We just have to keep at it a little longer!

Steve

Steve,

It is best if you just ignore this thread and let those of us who are interested in the discussion carry on from here.

Alan

 

[removed account4]

this thread is almost as entertaining as the "deleted" thread

 

[Curt]

http://www.ask.com/questions-about/To-Flog-a-Dead-Horse

Maybe now it can be laid to rest.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I agree with Curt.

I've said all I wish to say and will no longer post in this thread.

Rest in peace.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

I agree with Curt.

I've said all I wish to say and will no longer post in this thread.

Rest in peace.

PE

To bad, because there is still the issue of the physical chemistry of diffusion of ions that needs to be cleared up.

 

[Sirius Glass]

This has prompted me to ask the following:

1. Should we assume that the stop bath makers dilutions are correct for both paper and film or to be on the safe side should we increase the dilutions for film and if so to what?

2. Can we assume that if the stop bath has a colour indicator for exhaustion then we can use it until that colour change occurs even if the answer to point 1 is to use a lower dilution for film?

It's been a great discussion which I have enjoyed.

Thanks

pentaxuser

1) The manufactures really know what they are doing. Follow the directions.

2) The color indicator shows the pH. If the pH is off the color changes, so dump it then.

Steve

 

[Sirius Glass]

We just have to keep at it a little longer!

Steve

Steve,

It is best if you just ignore this thread and let those of us who are interested in the discussion carry on from here.

Alan

Alan,

I think there are some unanswered questions so that I why I posted that. The arguments were dead, but the information was still needed after the testosterone had dissipated.

Steve

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Stop bath should not be used with some developers. Pyro needs an alkaline archival fixer such as TF4 or TF5. Example, Rollo Pyro developer should not have stop bath used because it needs a fixer like TF-4 or TF-5 after a water wash.

Sandy King has said that stop baths are not detrimental to pyro developer use. I've tested water bath vs. stop bath with PMK and found there is minimal differences in film densities between the two. (If you're curious, the stop bathed neg was lower in density in the denser steps than the water bathed neg by about 0.02 OD - probably simple variance in the method of the test, or perhaps the stop bath stopped the development sooner than the running water bath did.)

What's your proof for your statement?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sandy King has said that stop baths are not detrimental to pyro developer use. I've tested water bath vs. stop bath with PMK and found there is minimal differences in film densities between the two. (If you're curious, the stop bathed neg was lower in density in the denser steps than the water bathed neg by about 0.02 OD - probably simple variance in the method of the test, or perhaps the stop bath stopped the development sooner than the running water bath did.)

What's your proof for your statement?

The word of the master, Per Volquartz. I have never found him to be wrong and I do not waste my time testing every possibility in hopes I can raise my ego by finding a mistake.

Steve

 

[Q.G.]

Discussing things is about (or should be at least) finding out how they really are.
Referring to an authority in the field, to their explanations of how things are, is a good thing.
But simply bowing to authority isn't very productive, is it?

 

[Sirius Glass]

The word of the master, Per Volquartz. I have never found him to be wrong and I do not waste my time testing every possibility in hopes I can raise my ego by finding a mistake.

Steve

Bostick & Sullivan, note an APUG sponsor, said the same thing the first time I bought Rollo Pyro. One would think that they know their products. But who am I do disagree with Kirk???

Steve

 

[Q.G.]

Again, we learn by knowing how things are, delving into how things work.
Not by discussing personalities.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Again, we learn by knowing how things are, delving into how things work.
Not by discussing personalities.

It was the tone from Mount Olympus that I was taking a shot at.

Steve

 

[Ray Rogers]

Ian-Yes, I think you are correct about the about the origin of plain water rather than acid stops for negatives.

Q. G.-
In this case, I did not have to "choose" a side...
I already possesed one of my own!

alanrockwood-I agree, I hope PE only meant he would stop beating that poor horse,
not drop out of the the more thought provoking P-Chem discussion.

Strange story but true...
On the first day after moving to Japan,
I had the strange experience of visiting the funeral of a young man who was said to have
died sleeping under a "kotatsu"... (a heated table with a blanket covering)...
A man, crying, came up to the body and started pounding on it screaming "wake up you stupid son of a bitch!"

I couldn't belive my eyes.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

It was the tone from Mount Olympus that I was taking a shot at.

Steve

I offered more than a declaration from Mt. Olympus. I offered actual test results.

It's a simple test to do. Take two sheets, expose them identically and then process them together in your pyro-based developer of choice. Then, when development is done, place one into a running water bath and the other into stop bath. Then fix them side-by-side and finish processing thme together. Take a color densitometer and measure the density in RGB and VIS density settings. Compare the results.

That's what I did. And there's was no significant difference from my measurements.

What evidence did your experts give?