Stop Bath.. How important?

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MattKing

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If you are picky about your process, you use stop bath; if you aren’t, you don’t. The only question is do you want to stop development uniformly at a certain time or not. Precision or sloppiness, your choice. But it isn't essential; it just eliminates a variable. And it doesn’t require a four month debate. Is this what film proponents have come to? Endless debates about stop bath? Or the ongoing month long debate: Strap or no strap? I guess you are really in your element here. Like a bunch of old geezers gathering at the donut shop every morning for coffee to talk about the good old days of APUG. It's suicidal.
Interesting..
FWIW, I think it is important that the question asked in the title to this thread is "Stop Bath.. How Important?"
I read that to be a question about how things work.
I'm of the type that thinks how things work is always interesting, and that understanding how things work is as important as knowing what things work. I'm not at all concerned about the length of this thread, because that length reflects the fact that new people continue to join in on the question.
In addition, one of the advantages of this site is that it gives people a chance to see how a wide variety of photographers in a wide variety of locations approach photographic issues. Many people who log on here don't have many (or even any) opportunities to engage directly with film photographers in their community, so this resource gives people an opportunity to engage on questions whose answers may seem obvious to many of us.
When I started with this (at age 11), I had available a plethora of reliable sources of information on how to do things, and many well informed people I could ask directly to show me how. For many of the newer members here, their sources of information consist of YouTube videos and the contradictory comments attached to them.
There are no stupid questions, if you don't know the answer.
And as for the "Strap or no strap?" type of discussions, they aren't particularly important in respect of the straps themselves. Their interest resides in how they illustrate how different people approach things in different ways. Tell me you haven't seen a reference in a thread like that to something different you might like to try some time?
 
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If you are picky about your process, you use stop bath; if you aren’t, you don’t. The only question is do you want to stop development uniformly at a certain time or not. Precision or sloppiness, your choice. But it isn't essential; it just eliminates a variable. And it doesn’t require a four month debate. Is this what film proponents have come to? Endless debates about stop bath? Or the ongoing month long debate: Strap or no strap? I guess you are really in your element here. Like a bunch of old geezers gathering at the donut shop every morning for coffee to talk about the good old days of APUG. It's suicidal.

"suicidal"? Gosh, I really appreciate how you incisively step in to put an end to the debate. How I wish you could have been around 13 years ago when I posted the original question! Heck, I'd have taken the thread right down had I known that I was boring you with all of my silly talk of precision. What a fool I am to want better control of the development of a permanent image (... that would be the negative image ...) that could be the master for the prints I sell!

What a bizarre way to describe your disrespect for the craft of photography. Who are you to say what requires a 4 month debate? You argue for sloppiness over precision? I wish you could have participated in an Ansel Adams or John Sexton workshop. You'd learn a few things from these precise old geezers who incidentally made photographs of incomparable quality. I know, I know... quality is so boring and nobody under the age of 30 has the patience for it.
 

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"suicidal"? Gosh, I really appreciate how you incisively step in to put an end to the debate. How I wish you could have been around 13 years ago when I posted the original question! Heck, I'd have taken the thread right down had I known that I was boring you with all of my silly talk of precision. What a fool I am to want better control of the development of a permanent image (... that would be the negative image ...) that could be the master for the prints I sell!

What a bizarre way to describe your disrespect for the craft of photography. Who are you to say what requires a 4 month debate? You argue for sloppiness over precision? I wish you could have participated in an Ansel Adams or John Sexton workshop. You'd learn a few things from these precise old geezers who incidentally made photographs of incomparable quality. I know, I know... quality is so boring and nobody under the age of 30 has the patience for it.
Hang in there John! I was ten or eleven when I first learned to use "acid" stop and the reason why being: "to immediately stop development" which I would think everyone developing film and even prints would want to do.. There are other good reasons to use it but stopping development is the most important. After seventy years, I can't see why there is even a discussion about it. Our tap water and I assume distilled water has a Ph of 7 (neutral) but I know of cities whose tap water is alkaline which, I am told, causes the film to continue to develop until it is placed in the fix which will kill the fix sooner than later. Saving such a little time for questionable repeatability just isn't worth it. As to pin holes caused by the stop, never had any..........Regards!
 

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I do not reuse the fixer when i process my films so no wary about exhaustion of fixer. The fixer i use is from ilfod that is acidic, so as soon i dump developer off of tank i pure fixer that immediately stops development and starts washing out unexposed silver. Do not see so much complexity in my workflow.
Cheers.
 

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You argue for sloppiness over precision? I wish you could have participated in an Ansel Adams or John Sexton workshop. You'd learn a few things from these precise old geezers who incidentally made photographs of incomparable quality. I know, I know... quality is so boring and nobody under the age of 30 has the patience for it.
Hardly. In the 45 years I have been a photographer, I have never not used stop bath for film and prints. It is as simple as reading the instructions.
 
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Sirius Glass

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I do not reuse the fixer when i process my films so no wary about exhaustion of fixer. The fixer i use is from ilfod that is acidic, so as soon i dump developer off of tank i pure fixer that immediately stops development and starts washing out unexposed silver. Do not see so much complexity in my workflow.
Cheers.

What a complete waste of chemicals. I am glad that you are no may accountant nor finance advisor.
 

Sirius Glass

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[QUOTE="John M Austin, post: 2142657, member: 88028"You argue for sloppiness over precision? I wish you could have participated in an Ansel Adams or John Sexton workshop. You'd learn a few things from these precise old geezers who incidentally made photographs of incomparable quality. I know, I know... quality is so boring and nobody under the age of 30 has the patience for it.
Hardly. In the 45 years I have been a photographer, I have never not used stop bath for film and prints. It is as simple as reading the instructions.[/QUOTE]

And which instructions might you be referring to?
 

Photo Engineer

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These?

Kodak B&W process manual.
 

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phass

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What a complete waste of chemicals. I am glad that you are no may accountant nor finance advisor.

I know, i should of mention that i did not bring the digital photography habits in to the film one. I do not shoot "every moving object." My 120 roll is last at least one month. I would guess that you will be able to use the same fixer for at least two rolls without any concern of exhaustion by skipping the stop bath.
Cheers.
 

warden

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I know, i should of mention that i did not bring the digital photography habits in to the film one. I do not shoot "every moving object." My 120 roll is last at least one month. I would guess that you will be able to use the same fixer for at least two rolls without any concern of exhaustion by skipping the stop bath.
Cheers.
The cool thing with fix is that it's super easy to test it (you can just use a film leader) and then you know when to throw it out without guessing or waste.
 

Sirius Glass

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Take your pick. But I'm not going to go down the stop bath rabbit hole with you.

You are in the rabbit hole. There are excellent reasons why your practices are not well considered. Only pyro uses water as a stop bath with the appropriated fixer.
 
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Hardly. In the 45 years I have been a photographer, I have never not used stop bath for film and prints. It is as simple as reading the instructions.

And which instructions might you be referring to?[/QUOTE]
Faberryman was being clever with his use of the double-negative. He is really saying that he's always used a stop bath. He (like myself) believes in the value of the stop bath when living in areas of uncertain tap water ph.
 

faberryman

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Faberryman was being clever with his use of the double-negative. He is really saying that he's always used a stop bath. He (like myself) believes in the value of the stop bath when living in areas of uncertain tap water ph.
My use of stop bath has nothing to do with uncertain tap water ph.
 
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tezzasmall

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I cannot believe there have been 128,000+ views and 570 posts on a topic as mundane as whether or not to use stop bath. Photography just isn’t that complicated.

But it does add up to a forum subject that makes some of us laugh about how long it takes for one question to be answered many times, in many different ways!

So, following on from my comment above, I will NOT be adding any details of my processing procedure... :D

Terry S
 

Ian Grant

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I can add no more! :D

Terry S

We can add that Ilford and Kodak actually recommend Stopbath or a Water rinse between Development and Fixing of Black and White films. Note this is only films there's no similar either/or for B&W papers. It's in the Kodak and Ilford data sheets.

Also note that Kodak and Fuji have made processors that use no stopbath or water rinse for commercial B&W filmprocessing, going straight from the developer to the fixer.

Ian
 

Mick Fagan

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Also note that Kodak and Fuji have made processors that use no stopbath or water rinse for commercial B&W filmprocessing, going straight from the developer to the fixer.

Ian

That would be correct, Dupont also made a series of commercial film processors up to 1m wide as standard and up to 1.2m wide for special order. None that I can remember used a stop bath, instead they all used a set of squeegee rollers from one bath to the next. Dupont and a couple of other American companies made very wide roll film for the graphic arts industry. Some of our roll film gallery cameras could handle 1m square film images, which is getting into cartographic territory.

My own personal paper processor, a Durst Printo, also uses squeegee roller sets on the exit rollers of each tank.

As all of these commercial units used constant replenishment systems, once things were correct, they were sometimes used for up to 3 months at a time before a clean and change of the various baths happened. Super consistent processing, mostly, but kilometres away from what has been under discussion in this thread over the last decade. :whistling:

Mick.
 

alanrockwood

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Let's think about this from a physics/chemistry/engineering point of view, focusing first on the rationale for using stop bath and then on whether there are alternatives to accomplishing the same end. I am hearing two reasons presented for using stop bath, one is to stop development "right now" and the other is to preserve the fixer. The rationale for stopping development "right now" can be broken down into two components., One is to assure known and repeatable development times. The other is to assure evenness of development across the film (or print).

Let's look at the issue of known and repeatable development times. The termination of development by acid stop bath is controlled mainly by diffusion of protons into the emulsion. This overwhelms the buffer, lowering the pH, which stops development. Developer also diffuses out of the emulsion, but this a slower process that is not rate-controlling.

Termination of development by water instead of stop bath is also controlled by diffusion. In this case it is diffusion of buffer and developer out of the emulsion. As buffer diffuses out of the emulsion the pH drops, and this will slow development and ultimately stop development once the pH drops enough. (Most developers don't work at pH 7, which is the pH of pure water.) Simultaneously, the developer also diffuses out of the emulsion, and this also slows and ultimately stops development. The molecular weight and physical size of molecules of most developers is larger than that of most buffers, which implies that the diffusion rate of buffer is faster than the diffusion rate of developer, so buffer diffusion is probably rate controlling, but in any case, both effects act in the same direction, so the fine points are not that important. (For you chromatographers out there, there are also fine points about how affinity of gelatin to developer and buffer molecules affects the rates of transport, but that introduces another conceptual layer that does not really affect the final conclusions.) While these processes are occurring development continues to occur, though at a reduced rate. This means that development continues longer if one uses water than if one uses an acid stop bath. However, diffusion is a pretty reproducible process, so the net effect is to simply increase the effective development time. It would be easy to compensate for this effect simply by decreasing the development time slightly. I am not sure how much one should reduce the development time, but I would be very surprised if it were more than 15 seconds.

With regard to evenness of development across the film. That is going to be controlled by whether or not the full surface of the film is exposed to the stop bath (or water) at the same time. Unless there is a big difference in solution viscosity of pure water vs. acid stop bath, this effect is going to be the same, regardless of whether one uses stop bath or water, so evenness of development should not be affected by the choice of acid stop bath vs. water unless there is some other unaccounted for effect taking place.

The final conclusion I make is that it doesn't matter if one uses pure water or stop bath, provided one makes a slight adjustment to the nominal development time to account for the difference between acid stop bath and pure water.

As far as preserving fixer is concerned, an acid stop bath might have a very small effect in preserving fixer compared to using a pure water stop bath, but a pure water stop bath will remove the vast majority of buffer and developer before the film is transferred to fixer, so in this respect the difference between acid stop bath and fixer is unlikely to make any difference. However, if the film is transferred directly from developer to stop bath then fixer depletion could be more of an issue. In any case, this is really more of a practical economic issue than anything else, i.e. how often one needs to replace the stop bath.

The above analysis is based on theoretical analysis of the physics and chemistry of the process and how these impact the engineering of the process. The ultimate test would be controlled experimental studies. However, I am not planning to do the experimental studies because I am satisfied with using water as a stop bath. Nevertheless, I would be interested in the results if someone else wants to do the studies.

Correction: Where it says "i.e. how often one needs to replace the stop bath." it should say "i.e. how often one needs to replace the fixer."
 
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Photo Engineer

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Well, very well done Alan. OTOMH I can add that the diffusion rate of a proton is orders of magnitude more rapid than any inward or outward diffusion of chemistry such as Metol, HQ, Phenidone and etc. I can add that wetting of the surface of the film, even if wet already with developer, is a function of agitation and thus, size does matter! A large print or film (say 4x5 or larger) may suffer from this.

Also, the shorter the development time, the more critical stopping becomes.

PE
 

Ian Grant

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[QUOTE="Photo Engineer, post: 2143475, member: 6399Also, the shorter the development time, the more critical stopping becomes.

PE[/QUOTE]

Ironically the B&W RT film machine processors use the shortest development times typically 2 minutes or less and yet they don't all use a stop bath, but then they do go from an alkali developer to an acid fixer very rapidly often being squeegeed first.

Ian
 
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