Still using D-76/ID-11?

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dpurdy

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I have a film processing job coming in today and I don't want to buy a developer for this rare event. I used to use Xtol for custom processing but I want to switch to D-76 because I already have all the necessary chems for the very simple formula.
If you are a current or knowledgeable user of D-76/ID-11 ( I understand they are identical) what is your experience regarding dilutions and specifically 35mm HP5? Do you have a recommendation?

Thanks Dennis
 

Paul Howell

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On occasion I still use D76, with Trix or other courser grained 35mm films stock, Tmax delta, slower films, larger format 1:1 or 1:2. Currently I use Clayton F76+ which I think has working characteristics to D76.
 

mshchem

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If you use horizontal, Jobo like processing make sure you have enough developer to do the job. 1:1 is economical and yields great results. When I use my Jobo machines I run stock XTOL same with D-76. This prevents the bromide, iodide from the film development from overwhelming the developing agents. You can make up a replenisher if you need to keep using.
 
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dpurdy

dpurdy

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Great! Thank you people. The first roll is in the fix. I will look at it soon. I went 1-1 68º for 13 minutes. I process in total darkness in a vertical tank which holds up to 5 liters developer and I put enough in to easily cover.
 

DREW WILEY

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I quit using it as a general developer 40 years ago. It's a fine middle of the road choice, a "jack of all trades, but master at none". Most beginners start with it, and so did I. It's a great developer to start with. Some use it their entire life. But either use it freshly mixed, or starting about a week later. It changes pH equilibrium over the first few days. That's important to know. You could try either 1:1 or 1:2 working dilution. Dilute it just before use. The remaining stock solution should be stored in tightly stoppered full glass bottles.

For example, after mixing up enough of the powder for a quart of stock solution, I filter and pour that into little 125ml brown glass bottles, each of which is good, upon dilution, for either one or two sessions with a 120 roll film hand inversion drum, or a single batch of 4x5 film using tray development.

But a five liter capacity drum? Heck, I use less than a single liter, only 24 fl oz at most, for doing a 30X40 inch print in a drum. Just how many rolls of 120 or 35mm film do you plan on getting out of a quart or liter sized D76 packet?
 
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mshchem

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Great! Thank you people. The first roll is in the fix. I will look at it soon. I went 1-1 68º for 13 minutes. I process in total darkness in a vertical tank which holds up to 5 liters developer and I put enough in to easily cover.
Perfect
 

Lachlan Young

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D-76/ ID-11 is the standard against which Ilford and Kodak (and I'm pretty sure Agfa and Fuji) have attempted to measure every developer (that is developers intended for regular photography - as opposed to graphic arts, and other areas that use photographic materials) 'improvement' against ever since. Its buffering isn't ideal, but in almost all other aspects it delivers a balance of properties (sharpness - both edge effect and microcontrast, granularity, shadow speed, coverage) across all formats which (under a level of rigorous scientific evaluation that anyone claiming D-76 is somehow 'substandard' will never be able to equal) in concert with emulsion design technique, every subsequent attempt at bettering the performance balance of D-76/ ID-11 across-the-board largely failed - until the work that led to Xtol. Very often those claiming to have some special technique or developer are maybe getting an improvement in one aspect of sharpness/ granularity/ speed at the expense of another, which they aren't noticing because of their choices of format size, amount of enlargement (or quality of scanning), and other material/ optical choices.
 
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dpurdy

dpurdy

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D-76/ ID-11 is the standard against which Ilford and Kodak (and I'm pretty sure Agfa and Fuji) have attempted to measure every developer (that is developers intended for regular photography - as opposed to graphic arts, and other areas that use photographic materials) 'improvement' against ever since. Its buffering isn't ideal, but in almost all other aspects it delivers a balance of properties (sharpness - both edge effect and microcontrast, granularity, shadow speed, coverage) across all formats which (under a level of rigorous scientific evaluation that anyone claiming D-76 is somehow 'substandard' will never be able to equal) in concert with emulsion design technique, every subsequent attempt at bettering the performance balance of D-76/ ID-11 across-the-board largely failed - until the work that led to Xtol. Very often those claiming to have some special technique or developer are maybe getting an improvement in one aspect of sharpness/ granularity/ speed at the expense of another, which they aren't noticing because of their choices of format size, amount of enlargement (or quality of scanning), and other material/ optical choices.
It is such a simple formula and so cheap to make. I recently read a text book put out by Ilford in about 1932 and it published the formula for ID 11. That formula is slightly different from the current one in that it calls for twice the amount of sodium sulfite. The film I processed today was for someone else and all 8 rolls turned out perfect. I think I am going to standardize it for my personal use.
 

DREW WILEY

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There are various tweaks. Photog Formulary has a buffered version which doesn't shift pH when freshly mixed like the traditional Kodak product does, but costs a little more. I've used both, and other than the noted distinction, they seem to perform identically. For general outdoor photography, I switched to pyro long ago, but did continue to use 76 for various commercial applications where the lighting range could be artificially corralled. If it's the first Babe Ruth of developers, it might be getting awfully old and fat, but still can hit the ball out of the park if necessary.
 

Lachlan Young

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It is such a simple formula and so cheap to make. I recently read a text book put out by Ilford in about 1932 and it published the formula for ID 11. That formula is slightly different from the current one in that it calls for twice the amount of sodium sulfite. The film I processed today was for someone else and all 8 rolls turned out perfect. I think I am going to standardize it for my personal use.


There were many disclosed variants that attempted to resolve the buffering issues in replenished systems. If you're using it single shot (really the most sensible approach - if you need replenished, use Xtol), other than letting it reach equilibrium after mixing (about 48-72 hrs) and using it up in a timely fashion, you're not going to run into issues.

If you are mixing from scratch and really must have a replenished system, I'd possibly be inclined to see if D-23/ D-25R delivers what you need.

@michael_r It does amuse me that despite everyone going on about the usual West-Coast-set and pyro, there is clear, primary material evidence in correspondence between Ansel Adams and Paul Strand that at the end of the 1940s Adams was of the view that Kodak Portrait Pan (not the sharpest material in the world, from Kodak's own documentation - which would explain all the stories about some well known classic negs not being terribly enlargeable) and D-23 were near optimal materials. And it's equally clear that Kodak had thoroughly investigated staining developers and found them wanting (there's an interesting few hints Ron dropped over the years about the longevity - or not - of the dye coupled image formed) - if there was any meaningful benefit to staining/ dye forming developers, they'd have resolved any toxicity issues.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Back to the old AA mantra, huh? Yeah, seen any of those classic 8x10 images of his enlarged more than 2.5X ? I sure have. That will cure you of the myth fast. We have better film, better lenses, better cameras, better developers and papers, and sure as heck often way better personal darkrooms than he did. I frankly don't give a damn what either AA or Strand or even Kodak said about pyro. Staining pyro revolutionized my own workflow. It could be hell to print shimmering highlights otherwise, especially back when graded papers were the only premium paper option. The proof is in the pudding. And there's a helluva lot of good pudding out there that wouldn't exist were it not for the significant improvement pyro has actually made. But Kodak naturally would toot their own horn; that's what made them money. And pyro formulas weren't nearly as convenient as they are today.

There are old negs I made pre-pyro which I set aside as hopeless for decades, and have been able to print well only recently, after really outstanding VC papers arrived. Sometimes I salvaged them with registered contrast masks. If you want to make comparisons with some of AA's subject matter, with say, shimmering ice all the way to deep high altitude shadow in the same scene, not only back in D23 and Commercial Pan days one went nuts, but I also went nuts using way more modern film and developer combinations. Once I adopted pyro, those same extreme contrast scenes almost printed themselves. Incidentally, I don't rely on compression or compensation or minus development like classic Zone theory mandates. I want my cake and eat it too in terms of full tonality expansion, even if it involves a 12-stop range. So I consider the whole bag of tricks as fair game - staining pyro, VC paper, masking if needed. Whatever works. We should be grateful for all the tools in the tool box we now have, including those we inherited from Ansel's era.

So don't argue with me. Argue with my prints. Hundreds of them. Plus the prints of many others. But I guess in Glasgow or Montreal you aren't accustomed to extreme contrast range challenges. (Or here today, in our own fog & forest fire smoke mixture - about six stops range at most here today, sometimes four; hopefully not later in the week - I love fog, but not mixed with smoke!)

Now your turn to pull your sabers, Micheal & Lachlan. But the West Coast School can be a pretty tough critter to defeat. Just too much classic work depended on things Kodak either didn't know, or didn't want to admit. As far as toxicity, it has been inherent to pyrogallol usage for thousands of years, and always will be. But strangely, somewhere in the middle of all that, nitrile rubber gloves came into existence. And if you want to know about pyro tanning of gelatin, current medical R&D goes far beyond anything Kodak did. Pyro ain't going nowhere. It's here to stay.

Another 76 posts to go .... Oh, 'scuse me, another 76 @ D76 posts to go.
 
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RalphLambrecht

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I have a film processing job coming in today and I don't want to buy a developer for this rare event. I used to use Xtol for custom processing but I want to switch to D-76 because I already have all the necessary chems for the very simple formula.
If you are a current or knowledgeable user of D-76/ID-11 ( I understand they are identical) what is your experience regarding dilutions and specifically 35mm HP5? Do you have a recommendation?

Thanks Dennis
I'd trust the massive development chart in cases such as yours.
 

removed account4

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Hi Dennis
I have decided to go back to using Sprint Chemistry ( I've never used D76 or ID11 ). Sprint is similar to ID11 and D76 but it won't block up highlights. There is a big chart on their website (sprint systems of photography ) which might give you additional insights for the time to develop in good olde 76 (IIRC times for films are interchangeable).
Have fun with your new old 76 adventure!

Drew has always portrayed D-76 as some sort of “beginner” developer which real photographers graduate from once they attain superior skill and need better results.

Totally incorrect.

Also, Drew stop calling it 76. Please!

michael
people like to poo poo and insinuate people who use certain things are uneducated or unsophisticated or clueless students. fine by me. I'd rather use something that is not toxic and easy to use than have to prove myself by cheating death every time I use it.

John
 
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Hi Dennis
I have decided to go back to using Sprint Chemistry ( I've never used D76 or ID11 ). Sprint is similar to ID11 and D76 but it won't block up highlights. There is a big chart on their website (sprint systems of photography ) which might give you additional insights for the time to develop in good olde 76 (IIRC times for films are interchangeable).
Have fun with your new old 76 adventure!

D76 is relatively cheap but if one wants to get more mileage, here's a dilution that works well with roll film:

Dilution 1:10
50ml D-76 stock
+
0.3g Sodium Hydroxide
Water to make: 500ml

Use 75% of D-76 stock time as starting point.

Please note this is not an official Kodak dilution, YMMV and certainly not meant for purists.
 

BradS

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Still using D76? Yes, absolutely! There is a very good reason it is still commercially produced....yes, it is that good.
 

Peter Schrager

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Hi Dennis
I have decided to go back to using Sprint Chemistry ( I've never used D76 or ID11 ). Sprint is similar to ID11 and D76 but it won't block up highlights. There is a big chart on their website (sprint systems of photography ) which might give you additional insights for the time to develop in good olde 76 (IIRC times for films are interchangeable).
Have fun with your new old 76 adventure!



michael
people like to poo poo and insinuate people who use certain things are uneducated or unsophisticated or clueless students. fine by me. I'd rather use something that is not toxic and easy to use than have to prove myself by cheating death every time I use it.

John
Repeat after me..you will try xtol once more!!
Just joking john!
 

Peter Schrager

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Many of my photos are made under extreme contrast conditions. No matter what film, developer or process, I have to work hard on the prints to get what I want. D-76, pyro or whatever else. There’s no cake and eat it as far as making negatives goes.
John! Need to try using silver chloride or as I do make your own POP PAPER...much longer scale
Never have issues with contrast...that's just me
I like a easy not hard work!
 

removed account4

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John! Need to try using silver chloride or as I do make your own POP PAPER...much longer scale
Never have issues with contrast...that's just me
I like a easy not hard work!
couldn't agree more :smile:
easy is always good no matter the conditions
Where can they be seen? Reading about them on several occasions makes me curious.
An electronic reproduction, despite its deficiencies, would be better than nothing for people who are not going to schedule a trip just to see them in person.
DREW has a website it's with his name as the url but you have to go to the way back machine to see it.
 

DREW WILEY

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Michael - I never claimed things cannot still be done the hard way. Been there, done that myself. I didn't switch for sake of being snobby, but because it made printing significantly easier, especially highlight gradation. Now there are other workarounds with current high quality VC papers; but I still find pyro to be my preferred developer for most films (not all). If nothing but D76 existed, could I still get good prints? Of course; but I'd be right back to more work again. I'm not trying to makes an ideological war about this, other than the usual kind of fun back and forth banter you and I do. What is the key ingredient in any of these cases is just the sheer familiarity of anyone with their respective chosen materials. But nuances are in fact the thin ice I skate on.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Bernard - in cases like this, regarding subtle but important print nuances, web reproduction is indeed worthless. It's OK for nominal subject matter in some cases. I don't necessarily have a personal policy of not posting images, but just am not set up to do that casually. This is not my computer but my wife's for sake of her career. So there are certain restrictions. My own old Mac is disconnected; but a sizable early website was developed relative to that, back when there were significant web speed issues and image files had to be relatively small. Despite hits from nearly every country in the world, it did nothing to help print sales. Web surfers are one kind of animal, collectors an entirely different kind of animal, who expect to see real prints. And when I do put the big copy stand back to work, it will first be for sake of print collection cataloging and estate planning - a really big project. The gear is all set up, but I have no time for that kind of thing this particular year.
 

takilmaboxer

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Yes, I still use D-76, love the stuff.
But I often mix my own D-23. Should I let it stand a week like the above advice for D-76? I have never done that as I use it immediately as a one shot. I have noticed how D-76 ages.
Years ago the Smith gallery in Santa Fe had a special exhibition about "Moonrise Hernandez". They had several versions of the print showing the evolution in AA's printing choices for that negative. I was surprised at how soft the big prints were when viewed close up. Just yesterday, we drove by the place where he shot it! The scene is unrecognizable and the mountains were dim from all the smoke. As a photographer I was more interested in the contrast between the natural beauty and the abject poverty in Hernandez.
 
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