Statement from Harman Technology regarding recent sale to Pemberstone Ventures Ltd.

Steve Roberts · Sep 16, 2015

railwayman3 said:
TBH, something would have happened sooner or later. Directors/shareholders not in the first flush of youth, who needed to realise their investment and effort at some stage.

Indeed. The management buyout of ten years ago would not have taken place for reasons of sentimentality for the halcyon days of film nor for the charitable act of keeping Ilford film in production for the convenience of the likes of APUG. It happened because a group of businessmen with experience of the industry saw an opportunity and were prepared to take a financial risk. Each of us might spend money on speculative ventures (oh! that word!) whether it be in the form of buying shares, lottery tickets, Premium Bonds, setting up our own business, etc., but the ultimate aim is surely to see the value of our investment(s) increase so that we can cash them in and live happily ever after. Simon and crew have taken the company from the brink back to the state it's in today and have presumably seen this as the right stage in their lives and that of company to realise the results of their hard work and risk-taking. The brand is a very strong one in a niche market. I use almost exclusively Ilford products for B/W work but will not be losing any sleep over their continuing availability.
Steve

MDR · Sep 16, 2015

B/W film is not 1970's technology it is 1880's technology that get's continuously refined, but what's wrong with that the new Boeing 787 has the Nose of the DH Comet 1940's technology just because it is old doesn't make it obsolete. Digital machine code is even older than film technology yet nobody says computers are old tech. Also what a lot of people on this and the previous thread seem to miss is that Harman makes a lot more products than just film and paper for photographers Fuel cells are amongst the products promoted on their website, that's a cutting edge product. Coating lines can be used to coat lots of things not just paper and acetate.

On the young thing don't Kodak Alaris and Lomography have a deal promoting analogue photography, so it will be interesting to see how Harman will try to reach the "youngsters". The pinhole photography things started by the previous management was a good idea and why shouldn't Ilford produce/brand low-fi cameras, that appeal to the younger generation and some of the older generation, they did so in the past.

"develop a modern, smaller and more viable factory being thwarted by nimby-ism by the locals. I'd have sold up too, particularly if I was still young enough to do something else!" Railwayman don't be too hard on the locals they are often used by property developers to reach their goals and once they did the public usually gets screwed.

Before I forget David, Sue and Neil welcome to Apug I wish you a long future at Harman and at Apug.

Roger Cole · Sep 16, 2015

jnanian said:
GOOD

chemical photography isn't all hassle-blads, leicas and "large format"...

No, it's also Nikons, Canons, Pentaxes, Rolleis, Yashicas, Mamiyas...

RobC · Sep 16, 2015

There have a been a lot of complaints from UK users about the pricing of Ilford films in the UK which is a lot more expensive than in the US. Strange since the stuff is manufactured here. Well now I know why. If you want to sell the company to a UK investor, it helps to have a balance sheet showing a big increase in UK sales £££.

RattyMouse · Sep 16, 2015

blockend said:
Before the previous thread closed there was some dissent from my point that there has been no new research into film technology. I can't give a precise date for tabular grain innovation, but that was the last "new" thing and I strongly suspect the research behind it was not very recent. By research I mean people writing PhDs that trickle down into products on the shelves, not manufacturing tweaks.

Some will say research is not relevant, film is what it is take it or leave it, and they might have a point. However this effectively leaves a product based on a historical process created on historical machinery, never a healthy long term prospect. The technical details behind T-grain and similar technology seem to have disappeared from the web, so I can't offer a definitive date to the concept, someone else may provide an answer.

Kodak Portra film, which is one of the newest films around, definitely set the bar when it comes to scanning. A well scanned negative of Portra 160 is truly amazing.

paul_c5x4 · Sep 16, 2015

MDR said:
Digital machine code is even older than film technology yet nobody says computers are old tech.

December 10th will mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of Ada Lovelace - Generally recognised as the first computer programmer.

As for the acquisition by Pemberstone, I would anticipate that the move opens up access to new investment in the factory and equipment. The real value of the company lies in the expertise of the employees and their ability to face new challenges and adapt.

blockend · Sep 16, 2015

RattyMouse said:
Kodak Portra film, which is one of the newest films around, definitely set the bar when it comes to scanning. A well scanned negative of Portra 160 is truly amazing.

Kodak Portra is recent, and it scans well, but is it technologically innovative? I shoot a fair bit of Agfa Vista 400, aka Fuji 400 at 100 ISO and it offers qualities very similar to Portra, albeit at a lower film speed. Re. Rob C's point, Ilford films are much more expensive in the UK than the US, in bulk rolls the difference is even greater. I buy a steady supply of HP5+ for the sole reason it has a thicker film base than TX400, but resent paying a premium for purchasing a home grown product. I hope the new owners will standardise prices globally.

Xmas · Sep 16, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
I hope you can clarify if the new owners intend to have the same commitment as the old ones.

Ilford were trying to make money selling photo products. Suggest you could try

http://www.pemberstone.com

instead... I'd suggest they will be trying to make even more money.

Or look them up in company house.

georg16nik · Sep 16, 2015

Ricardo Miranda said:
I fully agree with that.
Every time there is a change of something, there's always those that panic buy.

To Harman:

You said this:

“We remain totally committed to Analogue Photography, and indeed to all forms of Imaging.Our Product Range is uniquely stable and of the highest quality, and we can assure all of our customers that we will continue to support them in our customary way for the foreseeable future”

Click to expand...

That last bit is what worries me.
I would like to see the older commitment to the production of film of the entire range, from Kentmere films to Ilford SFX, to be reiterated.

It would have been better if you had wrote:
"...that we will continue to support them in our customary way as we have always done."

That would spell out any doubts.
As it is, I'm glad I don't depend on your products as I am mainly a Foma customer, but I would miss the Kentmere films.

I hope you can clarify if the new owners intend to have the same commitment as the old ones.
Thank you!

Ricardo, I share your worries, and let's not forget this:

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Ralph,

Its been in our mission statement from the day HARMAN technology Limited Limited was founded 9 years ago in February 2014:

' We will be the best, and the last in Black & White, and judge our performance on how well we respond to our customers needs'

BUT lets hope we have plenty of competition and for a long time to come, and I'm absolutely sure we shall...we value choice....

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

after all, it's all business.. no ?

removed account4 · Sep 16, 2015

Roger Cole said:
No, it's also Nikons, Canons, Pentaxes, Rolleis, Yashicas, Mamiyas...

exactly ...

Xmas · Sep 16, 2015

Ahhhh that is just too cynical for words you cannot trust anyone now?

jnanian said:
exactly ...

removed account4 · Sep 16, 2015

Xmas said:
Ahhhh that is just too cynical for words you cannot trust anyone now?

whats this have to do with trust ?
my post had to do with gear snobbery / prejudice
nothing to do with ilford's comments ...

Trask · Sep 16, 2015

It seems this discussion continues this week in the absence of any response or engagement of a substantive nature from Ilford UK. Well, the Salon de la Photo is coming up in Paris in the first week of November, and I'll be attending to scope out any analog goings-on -- it'll be interesting to see if Ilford are present, and what they have to say for themselves.

Xmas · Sep 16, 2015

RobC said:
There have a been a lot of complaints from UK users about the pricing of Ilford films in the UK which is a lot more expensive than in the US. Strange since the stuff is manufactured here. Well now I know why. If you want to sell the company to a UK investor, it helps to have a balance sheet showing a big increase in UK sales £££.

HiRob
That has always been tha case, Fiji , Kodak and ilford have always been more expensive in UK than US or Ja.
Some people import them by post in big packages cause even with postage you save money.
In the past it was economic to fly to Dublin buy a car, ferry it back and pay the VAT in UK. Cause auto prices for UK autos were way high, even compared to the republics.
Noel

Bob Carnie · Sep 16, 2015

I remember this post by Simon Galley

In 2007 Simon stated they Ilford would be the last ones standing in BW
I hope the new owners feel the same 8 years later.

georg16nik said:
Ricardo, I share your worries, and let's not forget this:

after all, it's all business.. no ?

Richard S. (rich815) · Sep 16, 2015

blockend said:
Before the previous thread closed there was some dissent from my point that there has been no new research into film technology. I can't give a precise date for tabular grain innovation, but that was the last "new" thing and I strongly suspect the research behind it was not very recent. By research I mean people writing PhDs that trickle down into products on the shelves, not manufacturing tweaks.

Some will say research is not relevant, film is what it is take it or leave it, and they might have a point. However this effectively leaves a product based on a historical process created on historical machinery, never a healthy long term prospect. The technical details behind T-grain and similar technology seem to have disappeared from the web, so I can't offer a definitive date to the concept, someone else may provide an answer.

You forgot to put your rose-colored glasses on for this new thread.

blockend · Sep 16, 2015

Richard S. (rich815) said:
You forgot to put your rose-colored glasses on for this new thread.

Life removed my green filter long ago.

RattyMouse · Sep 16, 2015

blockend said:
Kodak Portra is recent, and it scans well, but is it technologically innovative? I shoot a fair bit of Agfa Vista 400, aka Fuji 400 at 100 ISO and it offers qualities very similar to Portra, albeit at a lower film speed. Re. Rob C's point, Ilford films are much more expensive in the UK than the US, in bulk rolls the difference is even greater. I buy a steady supply of HP5+ for the sole reason it has a thicker film base than TX400, but resent paying a premium for purchasing a home grown product. I hope the new owners will standardise prices globally.

Nothing scans like Portra 160. I shoot a LOT of Fujifilm and none of their films come close. If you are not seeing it, then you have low quality scans. Portra sets the bar here and it is truly innovative.

Xmas · Sep 16, 2015

blockend said:
Kodak Portra is recent, and it scans well, but is it technologically innovative? I shoot a fair bit of Agfa Vista 400, aka Fuji 400 at 100 ISO and it offers qualities very similar to Portra, albeit at a lower film speed. Re. Rob C's point, Ilford films are much more expensive in the UK than the US, in bulk rolls the difference is even greater. I buy a steady supply of HP5+ for the sole reason it has a thicker film base than TX400, but resent paying a premium for purchasing a home grown product. I hope the new owners will standardise prices globally.

The UK and U.S. price differential of Ilford film has nothing to do with ilford!
If you chose to use film you gotta pony up.
Try Kentmere 400 instead of HP5+ or the Boots buy 2nd at half price

fotch · Sep 16, 2015

Xmas said:
Ilford were trying to make money selling photo products. Suggest you could try

http://www.pemberstone.com

instead... I'd suggest they will be trying to make even more money.

Or look them up in company house.

Their web site in not up to date or finished. Not a good sign IMHO.

BrianShaw · Sep 16, 2015

Maybe they saw all of the hits from APUG folks and thought they were under a DOS attack.

Ai Print · Sep 16, 2015

Sal Santamaura said:
Especially since, like me, you're just a member here and don't provide the site any financial support.

I renewed my site membership and made a large donation to the site rebuild. I'm now going to log out and take a break from the web, get out and use Kodak and Ilford films, Ilford papers.

I would suggest those who are inclined do the same....

Pioneer · Sep 16, 2015

fotch said:
Their web site in not up to date or finished. Not a good sign IMHO.

They are all out enjoying their new film.

I too am out the door with a roll or two of HP5 so I regret that I will not have time to fin...

RobC · Sep 16, 2015

The overiding question is, why would an investment company buy out Harman knowing that the lease has only 10 years to run?

Don't forget that Harman don't own the site and Harman can't just redevelop the land they have a lease for. They couldn't sell the properties they put up on it anyway becasue they only lease the land. So what's in it for Pemberstone except Ilford profits for 10 years.

Pemberstone must know something we don't. They own industrial sites elsewhere. Maybe they're thinking of relocating Ilford to another site altogether since planning on current site doesn't seem to be forthcoming. But then again, if they've been given the nod that palnning will be granted then maybe Ilford will get what they wanted, a new purpose built unit on the current site. Or maybe Pemberstone will bring other industrial companies to the site which the council will probably accept since the site is already an industrial site.

The possibilities are many and varied. We'll just have to wait and see. Just remember that all Pemberstone have bought is Harman with a 10 year lease and not the rights to re-develop something they don't own unless they've bought that too and we haven't been told about it.

So you sleuths, start digging for more information.

blockend · Sep 16, 2015

RattyMouse said:
Nothing scans like Portra 160. I shoot a LOT of Fujifilm and none of their films come close. If you are not seeing it, then you have low quality scans. Portra sets the bar here and it is truly innovative.

I've shot a lot of Portra and scanned and printed it in 35mm and medium format. I prefer the colours from Fuji Pro400H. Portra is nice film and has good latitude but it isn't on a different technical planet to other C41 and isn't as saturated or as fine grained as Ektar 100. Besides, this conversation which is about the future of a black and white film manufacturer is going well off topic.

Statement from Harman Technology regarding recent sale to Pemberstone Ventures Ltd.

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