Starter formula for BW developer

[psykodaddy]

Hey guys,

Hope y'all are fine over there!

Some time ago I was able to work out and polish a pretty old formula for a developer, it's basically built around phenylendiamine, catechol and hydrochinone...

This formula needs the so called "seasoning", so pulling some 5-6 rolls through it before you can get constant results.

Now I've heard of kinda "starter" for these developers. They should give the parts that otherwise these sacrificed 5-6 rolls would give.

I'm searching the net for ages now, but couldn't find any usable formula.

Maybe some of you chemists out there can help with that

Thanks for your help with this!

P.S.:If PE would still be with us, I'm sure he would have a perfect solution for this...RIP fellow!

 

[gone]

Sacrifice some Foma 200. Some of us might pay good money to watch that.

 

[psykodaddy]

Thanks @momus !

The point is not to use film of any kind, but chemistry

What's the point with Foma? I like em

 

[MattKing]

This won't help you a lot, because I don't believe the products are made any more, but the Kodak datasheet for X-Tol has recommendations for starter:
Using Seasoned Developer
To use seasoned XTOL Developer in an unreplenished manual process, see the appropriate development time and temperature table for starting-point recommendations for specific films. You can take the solution from the developer overflow line or the working tank of an in-control replenished process. You can also “pre-season” fresh XTOL Developer by adding one of the following: • 6.5 mL of KODAK Developer Starting Solution (CAT 1466382) per litre of developer • 1 mL of KODAK EKTACHROME R-3 First Developer II Starter (CAT 869 9795 [U.S. and Australia] or CAT5240007 [Europe]) per litre of XTOL Developer • 1.2 mL of KODAK PROFESSIONAL First Developer Starter, Process E-6 (CAT 167 1577 [U.S.] or CAT 526 2670 [Europe and Asia]) per litre of developer

 

[Lachlan Young]

Some time ago I was able to work out and polish a pretty old formula for a developer, it's basically built around phenylendiamine, catechol and hydrochinone...

This formula needs the so called "seasoning", so pulling some 5-6 rolls through it before you can get constant results.

Now I've heard of kinda "starter" for these developers. They should give the parts that otherwise these sacrificed 5-6 rolls would give.

The short answer is that anything with that particular mix of ingredients is poorly designed - and potentially quite nasty (because of the PPD - CD-4 would be considerably safer).

Determining the 'correct' level of seasoning/ replenishment is defined by whether the developer reaches equilibrium - and maintains that equilibrium with use/ replenishment. The particular type of 'starter' you are looking for is essentially one that will deliver the equivalent amount of process byproducts (essentially halides released by the emulsions) of those few rolls - i.e. some bromide & possibly small amounts of iodide. Without knowing the solvency of your developer, or various other key details it would be difficult to define things further. The Kodak starters Matt refers to above are intended to turn a replenisher solution into an unseasoned starter developer.

 

[psykodaddy]

Hey @MattKing , thanks for the hint!

By any chance someone knows the formula for the "KODAK Developer Starting Solution"?

Wherever I look, no info or not available anymore...

 

[Sirius Glass]

I recommend stock XTOL or for better results replenished XTOL which gives better tonality and more. See below.

 

[MattKing]

The Kodak starters Matt refers to above are intended to turn a replenisher solution into an unseasoned starter developer.

Actually Lachlan, they are also equally usable for turning an unseasoned full strength developer into a seasoned working solution for a replenished developing line - thus the inclusion in the Kodak X-Tol data sheet section on Replenishment.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Actually Lachlan, they are also equally usable for turning an unseasoned full strength developer into a seasoned working solution for a replenished developing line - thus the inclusion in the Kodak X-Tol data sheet section on Replenishment.

I know this is splitting hairs, but Xtol is really a replenisher - which can also be used in unstarted form at stock strength or diluted. It's a seemingly small distinction, but important - especially when dealing with much older ideas of developer/ replenisher relationships.

 

[MattKing]

I know this is splitting hairs, but Xtol is really a replenisher - which can also be used in unstarted form at stock strength or diluted. It's a seemingly small distinction, but important - especially when dealing with much older ideas of developer/ replenisher relationships.

In one way, one of the most modern characteristics of one of Kodak's most modern developers is/was its ability to self-replenish. So when we talk about older ideas of develop/replenisher relationships, it probably is important to compare and contrast them with newer versions too.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I know this is splitting hairs, but Xtol is really a replenisher - which can also be used in unstarted form at stock strength or diluted. It's a seemingly small distinction, but important - especially when dealing with much older ideas of developer/ replenisher relationships.

One of many reasons for using it.

 

[psykodaddy]

Thanks for all your thoughts about this!

The point is, I love this developer, it gives awesome contrast and tonality (a bit like Rodinal, but way better). It can be used for ages when replenished and/or used frequently.

Here we get to the commercial thing about it: for the big companies selling this kind of developer is not as profitable, as selling one-shot soups.

My plan is to start selling this stuff in Germany. It's not all about profit on my side, more the benefits my fellow photographers would get with my developer

Here's the hurdle: selling developer that needs a seasoning (sacrifice film & time) for stability is not really interesting for most of them out there...so now I'm looking for a solution to deliver a ready-to-go product.

These are the main elements of my soup:

Sodium Hydrosulfite
Glycin
Sodium Bisulfite
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Carbonate
Phenylenediamine
Pyrocatechin

Any idea how to solve the seasoning mystery in this case?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Here we get to the commercial thing about it: for the big companies selling this kind of developer is not as profitable, as selling one-shot soups.

Let's knock this thinking on the head for once and all: both at a basic science & manufacturing R&D level, every part of that developer has been thoroughly (and I mean thoroughly) investigated by the major manufacturers. If there was any significant scientific and perceptual merit to it they would have found ways to make it profitably long ago. There are specially synthesised components used in some emulsions in the order of grammes per hundreds of kgs of emulsions because they have a useful impact. Just because it develops film tolerably well within your (inherently limited by the limitations of image transmission of certain components) uncontrolled psycho-optical perceptual system, doesn't make it better than anything produced by a major manufacturer. And the vast majority of new developers introduced by major manufacturers in the last 40 years have been either made in replenishable and one-shot variants (Ilfotech DD/ DD-X, Kodak Tmax/ Tmax RS) to differentiate between industrial and small-scale use - or replenishable but usable in single shot form (e.g. Xtol) - with the exceptions generally being those geared more towards heightened sharpness (e.g. Ilfosol 3).

By Hydrosulfite do you mean Sodium Bisulfite or Sodium Dithionite? Is this a fogging redeveloper you are trying to make?

 

[psykodaddy]

Yeah, you're totally right! I'm not near any of the manufacturers in terms of equipment or R&Ds' bare basics. Not even in my dreams this is near my level...I'm realistic

I just like this sauce and would like to give it a try if others like the results + handling as much as I do...

It's Sodium Dithionite, indeed. Not trying to make, it's already here and working for some months with a sack of rolls with pretty good results so far...

But, let's get back to the point: any idea on seasoning without film?

 

[cmacd123]

if you look at the differences between the "developer" and the "replenisher" in the kodak Motion Picture processing manauals, the "developer" tends to have Sodium Bromide and potasium Bromide that is not in the replenisher.

look though them all and compare - what ever is in the Developer but not the replenish-er is what would be found in the starter.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

These are the main elements of my soup:

Sodium Hydrosulfite
Glycin
Sodium Bisulfite
Sodium Sulfite
Sodium Carbonate
Phenylenediamine
Pyrocatechin

Won't Sodium hydrosulfite fog the film?

 

[mshchem]

I have a one liter bottle of the Kodak Developer System starter, I've had for a long time, if I'm starting a new XTOL "tank" that I intend to replenish I use the 6.5mL of starter. I haven't replenished XTOL for several years.
The bottle lists two ingredients, (there may be others) NaBr and NaCl.
I know when you look at the old Kodak formula books, the developer usually calls for a tiny bit KBr with the bromide being absent from the replenisher formula.

 

[Rudeofus]

There are several aspects to seasoning: there is bromide and iodide released during development, but there is also oxidation of development agent and the sulfite, happening both through development reaction and through aerial oxygen. You could try calculations: how much silver is in 5-6 rolls of film, how much bromide/iodide will it release, how much developer will get oxidized through development?

If you can get a solid handle on these numbers, you can add the bromide/iodide, and you can simulate developer oxidation by adding e.g. Hydrogen Peroxide.

Alternatively you could use old fogged photographic paper to handle seasoning.

@Sodium Dithionite: Used as is I guess it would indeed fog film, it is even used as fogging agent in color reversal. However, if not too much is added and the developer is well seasoned after mixing, all of it may be converted to sulfite or sulfate. It may even be in there to allow seasoning in automated developer machines.

 

[John Wiegerink]

There are several aspects to seasoning: there is bromide and iodide released during development, but there is also oxidation of development agent and the sulfite, happening both through development reaction and through aerial oxygen. You could try calculations: how much silver is in 5-6 rolls of film, how much bromide/iodide will it release, how much developer will get oxidized through development?

If you can get a solid handle on these numbers, you can add the bromide/iodide, and you can simulate developer oxidation by adding e.g. Hydrogen Peroxide.

Alternatively you could use old fogged photographic paper to handle seasoning.

@Sodium Dithionite: Used as is I guess it would indeed fog film, it is even used as fogging agent in color reversal. However, if not too much is added and the developer is well seasoned after mixing, all of it may be converted to sulfite or sulfate. It may even be in there to allow seasoning in automated developer machines.

"Alternatively you could use old fogged photographic paper to handle seasoning."

This is exactly what I have done to age "season" my Xtol-R. I have used it for seasoning other older developers also. Worked for me and I always seem to have some old, fogged paper around. It doesn't cost me a thing to do it that way either. JohnW

 

[psykodaddy]

Wow, that all sounds pretty logic and like a thing to handle in my little barn lab

Especially the old paper thing! Thanks @John Wiegerink

This week I'm pretty busy, but will do my first tests this weekend!

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@Sodium Dithionite: Used as is I guess it would indeed fog film, it is even used as fogging agent in color reversal. However, if not too much is added and the developer is well seasoned after mixing, all of it may be converted to sulfite or sulfate. It may even be in there to allow seasoning in automated developer machines.

Interesting! If dithionite is in the formula primarily to facilitate seasoning, then it means that the developer will fog the first few rolls of film till all the dithionite is consumed. So it makes more sense to continue with the conventional seasoning method of "pulling some 5-6 rolls through it" than to add bromide/iodide/peroxide.

 

[Murray Kelly]

That combination of agents reminds me of a lot of ersatz "777" attempts and that developer also needs ripening so it is said.
MCM100 is close but has no glycin. It might be possible to substitute HQ for the pyrocat with suitable solvents. Just some thoughts.

 

[Rudeofus]

Interesting! If dithionite is in the formula primarily to facilitate seasoning, then it means that the developer will fog the first few rolls of film till all the dithionite is consumed. So it makes more sense to continue with the conventional seasoning method of "pulling some 5-6 rolls through it" than to add bromide/iodide/peroxide.

These 5-6 rolls may be way more expensive than a few grams of halide and peroxide. Even expired film is quite costly these days.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

These 5-6 rolls may be way more expensive than a few grams of halide and peroxide. Even expired film is quite costly these days.

Every body has enough scrap negatives that can be bleached (rehalogenated), light fogged and developed several times to season the developer.

 

[Murray Kelly]

Question. How do you judge the amount of seasoning anyway?

It might be the sulphur compounds in the gelatin. Try some MSM (methyl sulphonated methane) from the health food store.