Stand development

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Max

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Stupid question time again!

I know what stand development is, but I don't know when to use it, or how to adjust the times for it.

Is it a N- thing only, or do you sometimes use it for normal development too?
 

Donald Miller

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I use minimal agitation in tubes. That is a form of stand or semi stand development. I use it in all means of contrast control (expansion to contraction). The benefit with certain films is that it provides enhanced edge effects which leads to a greater perception of sharpness.
 
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Max

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I know I'm not being very clear, but it's only because I don't know what I'm talking about...

So do you use it all of the time, or just for certain situations, like a water bath?

(FWIW, I use trays.)
 

Donald Miller

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Max said:
I know I'm not being very clear, but it's only because I don't know what I'm talking about...

So do you use it all of the time, or just for certain situations, like a water bath?

(FWIW, I use trays.)

I use it all of the time. Stand development in trays carries the potential for uneven development.
 

photomc

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Donald Miller said:
I use it all of the time. Stand development in trays carries the potential for uneven development.

I can confirm this, you have to make sure that your films are completely covered with developer, do not float to the surface, etc. Plan to build a slosh tray or purchase one, which should make this less of a problem. I do know that Donald has had very good success with the tubes.
 
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Max

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Stand development in trays carries the potential for uneven development.
That raises my next question, and maybe photomc already answered it: can you do more than one sheet at a time in a tray with stand development? It would seem that the developer between the sheets would get exhausted before it was time to agitate.

Does anyone do this in trays?
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Max said:
That raises my next question, and maybe photomc already answered it: can you do more than one sheet at a time in a tray with stand development? It would seem that the developer between the sheets would get exhausted before it was time to agitate.

Does anyone do this in trays?

Yes, I routinely do semi-stand development in slosher trays with 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 sheet film. My 4x5 slosher has 6 film compartments (thus 6 sheets of film) and my 5x7 and 8x10 sloshers both have 4 film compartments. The slosher trays are designed to fit into a slightly larger conventional darkroom tray.

My semi-stand agitation procedure calls for a 5 minute pre-soak in water, followed by transfer of the slosher tray to a tray of Pyrocat-HD working solution. I gently rock the slosher for 30 seconds immediately after immersion into the developer. I let the slosher stand for half of the total development time, then gently rock the slosher for 30 seconds. At the end of the development time I transfer the slosher tray to a tray full of water a brief rinse, then I transfer the slosher to a tray full of non-hadening alkaline fixer.

I have no problems with uniformity of development. With a slosher tray, I use a large volume of developer (1.5 - 2 liters 0f 2:2:100 dilution Pyrocat-HD) for 4 sheets of 8x10 film. Note that Pyrocat-HD is very inexpensive and works well with many different types of agitation. Pyrocat-HD works very well with minimum agitation.

I have not experienced any developer exhaustion problems with Pyrocat-HD. In fact, I have on occasion run an additional 4 sheets of 8x10 film through the developer with no change in performance.
 

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Tom,
can you give us some more information on your slosher trays? Construction if home-made and supplier if commercially purchased.
 

wfwhitaker

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photomc said:
I can confirm this, you have to make sure that your films are completely covered with developer, do not float to the surface, etc. .....
...I do know that Donald has had very good success with the tubes.

This almost seems a contradiction. How can one do stand development in tubes when the negatives need to be completely covered with developer?
 

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wfwhitaker said:
This almost seems a contradiction. How can one do stand development in tubes when the negatives need to be completely covered with developer?


The main compartment of the tube is made about 1 or 1.5 inches higher than the film's top edge when fully inserted (film is inserted long side vertical). This would allow one to fill the tube with developer and have the film lying about half and inch or so below the water level. Screw on the tube cap and start the development procedures accordingly.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Jeremy Moore said:
Tom,
can you give us some more information on your slosher trays? Construction if home-made and supplier if commercially purchased.

I made an error in my previous post - my 5x7 slosher tray holds 6 sheets of film - not 4. Sorry!

My 4x5 and 5x7 slosher trays are Summitek Cradles:

http://www.summitek.com/cradle.html

They are very well made and reasonably priced (less than $50.00). Summitek does not list an 8x10 Cradle.

My 8x10 slosher tray is made and marketed by Photographer's Formulary. It is of equivalent quality to the Summitek Cradles and the price is in the $80. - $90. range - as I recall.
 
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Max

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To confirm my understanding, it's not a good idea to do this with four sheets of 8x10 stacked up in an 11x14 tray, right?
 

Francesco

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It wont work Max. Uneven development will occur as the top ones are forced upwards and out of the developer by those at the bottom when you leave them to stand.
 
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Max

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Thanks.

I'm going for a record here with stupid questions - I don't have room for slosher trays. Is it just that the top ones won't get even development or that the developer between the sheets gets exhausted?

In other words, what if you put a few "dummy" sheets of already-developed, fixed, and washed film on top to keep the others down?

I know, I could always just do one sheet at at time, but I'm just asking...
 

mark

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Max

You are asking for problems. Trust me I tried with two 5x7 negs just to see if it would work and what a mess. Don't try it. With one tray you are limited to one negative for this, and that is not bad as long as you don't mind sitting in the dark far a long period of time.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Max said:
Thanks.

I'm going for a record here with stupid questions - I don't have room for slosher trays. Is it just that the top ones won't get even development or that the developer between the sheets gets exhausted?

In other words, what if you put a few "dummy" sheets of already-developed, fixed, and washed film on top to keep the others down?

I know, I could always just do one sheet at at time, but I'm just asking...

There are no stupid questions!

You can process 6 sheets of 5x7 with one 16x20 tray and 1 5x7 slosher tray that fits inside it.

1. Pour 2 liters of tempered water into the 16x20 tray, insert the slosher tray and pre-soak the film. Then add the developer concentrate to the soak water and agitate for 30 seconds.

2. At the halfway point, agitate for another 30 seconds.

3. When the development time is up, pour the necessary amount of non-hardening fixer concentrate directly into the developer and agitate (this is a Pat Gainer trick and it works very well).

4. Dump the used developer/fixer and wash the film in the slosher/16x20 tray combo, using multiple changes of water. The wash water needs to be within a degree or so of the soak/development/fixing chemistry - AVOID THERMAL SHOCKS!
 

philldresser

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Max

If you are contemplating stand/semi stand development of large format negs then I would recommend tubes. It is documented on APUG and other places how to build them and it is very simple and cheap. Plus you can work with hte lights on for most of the process. I use them for 4x5 semi stand with pyrocat sucsessfully

Phill
 

wdemere

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Francesco said:
The main compartment of the tube is made about 1 or 1.5 inches higher than the film's top edge when fully inserted (film is inserted long side vertical). This would allow one to fill the tube with developer and have the film lying about half and inch or so below the water level. Screw on the tube cap and start the development procedures accordingly.

I'm pretty sure that BTZS tubes (at least the 4x5 tubes I have) are NOT made this way. You must agitate fairly often (roll every 10-15 seconds at the least) or you get nice lines on your negative. I get this effect even when overfilling the cap as much as possible. Though I suppose you could fill the entire tube with developer if you wanted, but that defeats the convenience/purpose of the cap.

Just a warning to those who might try it....
 

mark

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wdemere said:
Though I suppose you could fill the entire tube with developer if you wanted, but that defeats the convenience/purpose of the cap.

Just a warning to those who might try it....

That is exactly what Fancesco was saying. You fill that sucker up. I have been hesitant to do it this way because of the huge amount of fixer it would require.

The slosher idea sounds pretty doable though.

I hope you don't mind if I add a question to this.

I have been told that you need to dilute the developer more than normal. Is this true and how much.

Heck if the negs aren't moving I am not screwing them up.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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mark said:
I have been told that you need to dilute the developer more than normal. Is this true and how much.

I am diluting Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 to Semi-Stand develop Efke 100, J&C Classic Plus 400 and Kodak TMY. I get the same results with higher dilutions - - it just takes longer.

mark said:
Heck if the negs aren't moving I am not screwing them up.

Yes indeed! Well - at least I'm not scratching them!
 

philldresser

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When I use the semi stand method I fill the tube up and then place the cap on. You leave the tubes standing vertically (well I do anyway) ensuring that the small airpocket remains at the top away from the neg. If you need to agitate (semi stand) then pick up the tube and rotate/shake and replace it standing up. It uses more solution but at 1:1:400 who cares :smile:

I use Pyrocat at 1:1:400 for this method with FP4. My attempts of this with 5x4 negs have all been sucsessful and sharpness is superb done this way

Phill
 

Donald Miller

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mark said:
That is exactly what Fancesco was saying. You fill that sucker up. I have been hesitant to do it this way because of the huge amount of fixer it would require.

The slosher idea sounds pretty doable though.

I hope you don't mind if I add a question to this.

I have been told that you need to dilute the developer more than normal. Is this true and how much.

Heck if the negs aren't moving I am not screwing them up.

The dilute developer is the only chemical that I fully fill my tube. For stop bath the amount is reduced. The fixer is in a tray. Once the film is "stopped" the film can be removed from the tube and fixed in a tray.

I dilute Pyrocat 1-1-120. This will build enough density range (contrast) in an Efke PL100 negative to allow one to print a SBR 5.5 negative on grade two Azo.
 

Jeremy

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Tom Hoskinson said:
There are no stupid questions!

You can process 6 sheets of 5x7 with one 16x20 tray and 1 5x7 slosher tray that fits inside it.

1. Pour 2 liters of tempered water into the 16x20 tray, insert the slosher tray and pre-soak the film. Then add the developer concentrate to the soak water and agitate for 30 seconds.

2. At the halfway point, agitate for another 30 seconds.

3. When the development time is up, pour the necessary amount of non-hardening fixer concentrate directly into the developer and agitate (this is a Pat Gainer trick and it works very well).

4. Dump the used developer/fixer and wash the film in the slosher/16x20 tray combo, using multiple changes of water. The wash water needs to be within a degree or so of the soak/development/fixing chemistry - AVOID THERMAL SHOCKS!

Are you kidding me? All I need is one tray to do this in and I don't have to pour anything out in between? I was wanting to do tray development as I thought it would be much easier when developing my inspection and now you're telling me that it's even easier than I thought!?!?!? Do you really do it this way, Tom, as I don't have space for multiple 16x20 trays and this sounds fabulous! (As you can tell, there are lots of exclamation marks because I'm quite excited! :smile:)

To keep things even simpler I could just have 4-5 gallons of water in jugs that have been tempered to room temperature over time and once I use one I can just fill it back up again--removing the need to worry about temperature changes in the water.
 

Tom Hoskinson

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Jeremy Moore said:
Are you kidding me? All I need is one tray to do this in and I don't have to pour anything out in between? I was wanting to do tray development as I thought it would be much easier when developing my inspection and now you're telling me that it's even easier than I thought!?!?!? Do you really do it this way, Tom, as I don't have space for multiple 16x20 trays and this sounds fabulous! (As you can tell, there are lots of exclamation marks because I'm quite excited! :smile:)

To keep things even simpler I could just have 4-5 gallons of water in jugs that have been tempered to room temperature over time and once I use one I can just fill it back up again--removing the need to worry about temperature changes in the water.

Here is an Efke PL100 8x10 semi-stand developed by the technique I described. The Pyrocat-HD dilution was 2:2:100 and the development time was 16.5 minutes at 21C.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

BTW: I use water in jugs (1 liter and 2 liter Nalgene) that is at my darkroom temperature. Ditto for my stock concentrates.

I do my film/developer testing in a SS tank with 120 roll film on Hewes SS reels. I use the same procedures that I use for LF sheet film.
 
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