Stand development

Chris Lee · Aug 3, 2004

I keep reading in the forums every so often about stand development, ie 60 minutes plus!

What are the benefits of this method? I assume it will be high compensation, and the minus points? (large grain?).

Are there any particular film/dev combos that work well?

Just got my first box of efke pl100 so anything I can try with this will be of great interest!

Thanks!

sanking · Aug 3, 2004

Chris Lee said:
I keep reading in the forums every so often about stand development, ie 60 minutes plus!

What are the benefits of this method? I assume it will be high compensation, and the minus points? (large grain?).

Are there any particular film/dev combos that work well?

Just got my first box of efke pl100 so anything I can try with this will be of great interest!

Thanks!

Earlier this year there was a lot of discussion on this topic in several threads on Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee's AZO forum. See http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/index_skip.html

You will probably find in the several threads there about as much useful information on the subject as is available anywhere else, either on the web or in print since, in addition to a lot of talking about the subject, quite a number of people actually experimented with the technique and reported results.

My opinion is that pure stand development is capable of providing some unique looking images in some situations but it is risky to use it as a substitue for more moderate forms of agitation.

Sandy

titrisol · Aug 3, 2004

The idea is that the highlights will exhaust the developer and the shadows will keep developing. Compensating development is another name for it
I think it works best in 35mm and MF, in larger formats you can have drag marks.

I like to use Rodianl 1+200 for this method.
Just agitate for the first minute and then go by a pizza, come back in 2-3 hours (time is not so important)

Francesco · Aug 3, 2004

As Sandy said, read the threads on the AZO forum, all the information is contained therein. I develop using BTZS-type tubes and minimal agitation with Efke PL100 8x10 inch film and Pyrocat HD diluted 1:1:120 - it is all I use and I have yet to have a single mark or scratch or whatever other artifact you can imagine. I am confident enough in my development procedures that I no longer expose for back up negatives. One scene - one shot! My negatives are extremely sharp (thanks to edge effects - the AZO forum has in depth discussions about this phenomenon), exhibits wonderful overall contrast, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, beautiful local contrast - it is this local or micro contrast which greatly contributes to a print's feeling of light (or glow, if you like) and three-dimensionality.

Silverpixels5 · Aug 3, 2004

Francesco said:
As Sandy said, read the threads on the AZO forum, all the information is contained therein. I develop using BTZS-type tubes and minimal agitation with Efke PL100 8x10 inch film and Pyrocat HD diluted 1:1:120 - it is all I use and I have yet to have a single mark or scratch or whatever other artifact you can imagine. I am confident enough in my development procedures that I no longer expose for back up negatives. One scene - one shot! My negatives are extremely sharp (thanks to edge effects - the AZO forum has in depth discussions about this phenomenon), exhibits wonderful overall contrast, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, beautiful local contrast - it is this local or micro contrast which greatly contributes to a print's feeling of light (or glow, if you like) and three-dimensionality.

Francesco:

What exactly is your procedure for minimal development, specifically with PL100? I believe I heard Sandy mention that you should increase your standard times 30-35%, but I'm not sure if that was for minimal agitation or semi-stand. I've used semi-stand with Tri-X with good results, and even EFKE 100 in roll film, but not 8x10. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

sanking · Aug 3, 2004

Silverpixels5 said:
Francesco:

What exactly is your procedure for minimal development, specifically with PL100? I believe I heard Sandy mention that you should increase your standard times 30-35%, but I'm not sure if that was for minimal agitation or semi-stand. I've used semi-stand with Tri-X with good results, and even EFKE 100 in roll film, but not 8x10. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Just to clarify, I highly recommend both minimal agitation, which I understand as agitation as every three minutes or so, and even extreme minimal agitation, where you divide the total time of development up into four parts, agitate for about one minute at the beginning of the first part, then for ten seconds at the beginning of parts 2, 3 and 4.

Both minimal and extreme minimal agiation will give greater adjacency effects, and increase apparent sharpnes, when compared to results with rotary (constant agitation) processing, and also very even development, which is not always the case with pure stand development.

Sandy

Donald Miller · Aug 3, 2004

Ron, I hope that you won't mind my reply to your question. My development procedures with Efke PL 100 are as follows.

1. Five minute presoak
2. One minute agitation followed by no agitation then 15 second agitation at one third and two thirds of total development time.
3. 30 second stop bath at 1/4 of normal dilution (acetic acid)
4. Four minute fix
5. twenty minute wash consisting of 5 dumps and refills.

I use BTZS type tubes...the same ones that Francesco uses...I believe... since I built them for him.

My times for Grade two Azo (1.65 density range) are as follows:

SBR 7 ---26 minutes
SBR 6 ---38 minutes
SBR 5 ---50 minutes

My times for enlarging on VC materials (condensor enlarger 1.15 DR) are as follows:
SBR 7 ---16 minutes
SBR 6 ---28 minutes
SBR 5 ---38 minutes

Hope that this helps. Good luck

Donald Miller

Silverpixels5 said:
Francesco:

What exactly is your procedure for minimal development, specifically with PL100? I believe I heard Sandy mention that you should increase your standard times 30-35%, but I'm not sure if that was for minimal agitation or semi-stand. I've used semi-stand with Tri-X with good results, and even EFKE 100 in roll film, but not 8x10. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Jim Moore · Aug 3, 2004

Donald Miller said:
1. Five minute presoak
2. One minute agitation followed by no agitation then 15 second agitation at one third and two thirds of total development time.
3. 30 second stop bath at 1/4 of normal dilution (acetic acid)
4. Four minute fix
5. twenty minute wash consisting of 5 dumps and refills.

I use BTZS type tubes...the same ones that Francesco uses...I believe... since I built them for him.

I have a dumb question. If you're using tubes do you fill them up completely with developer? If not how does the developer make contact with the entire sheet of film while sitting for that length of time?

Thanks!

Jim

Silverpixels5 · Aug 3, 2004

Don:

Thank you very much for your help! I'm assuming these times are at 70F, is that correct?

Ron

Francesco · Aug 3, 2004

Jim, there must be enough developer in the tube so that the film will be totally immersed in it when the tube is left standing. I allow an extra centimeter or so over the edge of the film just to be certain it stays under "water" even if some slight movement or shifting of the film might occur.

Ron, the tubes Don built for me are fantastic! I used to own some Darkroom Innovations type tubes but Don's 3-piece design is superior in every way - especially in protecting the film during insertion and most importantly during removal. As per his recommendation, I have now standardised on using a fiberglass mesh screen backing for my negs each time I use the tubes.

My procedure for minimal agitation is one minute initial agitation and then 15 seconds agitation at every 3 minute interval if total time is less than 30 mins or at every 5 minute interval if total time is greater than 30 minutes. My total times are between 2 and 3 times that of my times for continuous but gentle agitation.

Donald Miller · Aug 3, 2004

Ron, That is correct.

Silverpixels5 said:
Don:

Thank you very much for your help! I'm assuming these times are at 70F, is that correct?

Ron

Jim Moore · Aug 3, 2004

Francesco said:
Jim, there must be enough developer in the tube so that the film will be totally immersed in it when the tube is left standing. I allow an extra centimeter or so over the edge of the film just to be certain it stays under "water" even if some slight movement or shifting of the film might occur.

Thanks Francesco...

Ron, the tubes Don built for me are fantastic! I used to own some Darkroom Innovations type tubes but Don's 3-piece design is superior in every way - especially in protecting the film during insertion and most importantly during removal. As per his recommendation, I have now standardised on using a fiberglass mesh screen backing for my negs each time I use the tubes.

Don,

Do you have the plans for your tubes posted anywhere? I would be interested in them.

Thanks!!

Jim

Donald Miller · Aug 3, 2004

Jim, I had some photographs posted months ago. Unfortunately in the interim my computer crashed and I lost all of those images. My tubes are built from ABS (black) plastic componants. The sizes are 3" for 8X10 and 1 1/2" for 4X5.

The tubes for 8 X10 consist of a length of 3 inch tubing to which one end is capped with a 3 inch glue cap and the other end has a 3 inch male pipe adapter. The length of this assembly is 1/2 inch shorter then the long dimension of the 8X10 negative.

The next componant is a short adapter used for minimal agitation. This adapter consists of a 3 inch female adapter glued to a 3 inch male waste adapter.

The third componant consists of a 3 inch female waste adapter glued to a 3 inch glue cap.

Componants one and three are used for conventional development. Componants one, two and three are used when one does minimal agitation. The purpose of componant two is to allow full immersion of the negative in developer when the tube is placed on end for the "rest periods" for minimal agitation.

I also use fiberglass window screen material on the base side of the negative to allow the presoak water to access the antihalation layer of the film. This precludes the necessity of moving the negative in and out of the tube during the presoak portion of the procedure.

For 4 X 5 negatives the assembly is the same except for a reduction to 1 1/2 inch materials.

Hope this explains this to you. Good luck.

photomc · Aug 3, 2004

Since I have some Pyrocat-HD to mix up, and have thought about using Rodinal 1:100 also - does semi-stand development work well with roll film (120)? Was considering initial agitation for 30 sec, then 10 sec every three minutes (using FP4+) for 30 minutes at 20 deg. - does that sound reasonable?

Would these times hold up for Pyrocat-HD as well?

Thanks,
Mike

Jim Moore · Aug 3, 2004

Donald Miller said:
Hope this explains this to you. Good luck.

Yes it does and thank you!

Jim

roy · Aug 4, 2004

photomc said:
also - does semi-stand development work well with roll film

In my experience, it does. In the thread "FP4+ grain in Rodinal" of a few weeks ago, I mentioned that I had successfully developed an out of date film in several years old developer. I did not give it 30 minutes, more like 20 but the whole thing was an experiment and, although there was nothing on the film that was of major importance, the whole film was good and each shot was a bonus. Shoot off a spare film and try it.

gma · Aug 4, 2004

Is the stand method or some minimal agitation method suitable for 35mm film as well as for sheet film? If so does anyone have experience with 35mm? Also I think that some films must respond better than others. Any comments?

Silverpixels5 · Aug 4, 2004

gma said:
Is the stand method or some minimal agitation method suitable for 35mm film as well as for sheet film? If so does anyone have experience with 35mm? Also I think that some films must respond better than others. Any comments?

I've used it with excellent results on 35mm. Mostly it has been with PCat HD, but I've done it with rodinal as well. My negatives have always turned out great.

Les McLean · Aug 4, 2004

gma said:
Is the stand method or some minimal agitation method suitable for 35mm film as well as for sheet film? If so does anyone have experience with 35mm? Also I think that some films must respond better than others. Any comments?

35mm TriX in D76 diluted 1 to 20 agitate for the first 3 minutes and leave the tank in a water bath at 24c for up to 3 hours, stop and fix as normal. The negatives will be grainy but IMO will produce quite nice gritty prints. A variation of this is the DD/FF techniques used by press photographers in the days when Tri X was the fastest fim available. Sometimes when the light was fading fast and flash was not an option they rated TriX from 400 to 1600 on the same roll and diluted D76 at 1 to 50 and left it in the developer for 6 hours. I've tried this and every negative was printable and the combination produced the most beautiful grain. If you don't like grain don't try it.

gma · Aug 4, 2004

Thanks, Les. I do not mind grain in Tri-X. Actually I was thinking about some of the slower films such as EFKE 50 or Ilford Pan F. Does shadow detail increase in slow films as it does with a fast emulsion?

mrh · Aug 5, 2004

My times for Grade two Azo (1.65 density range) are as follows:

SBR 7 ---26 minutes
SBR 6 ---38 minutes
SBR 5 ---50 minutes

Hope that this helps. Good luck

Donald Miller[/QUOTE]

Doanld:

For these times and SBR, what dilution are you using?

Thanks.

Matthew

Donald Miller · Aug 5, 2004

mrh said:
My times for Grade two Azo (1.65 density range) are as follows:

SBR 7 ---26 minutes
SBR 6 ---38 minutes
SBR 5 ---50 minutes

Hope that this helps. Good luck

Donald Miller

Doanld:

For these times and SBR, what dilution are you using?

Thanks.

My dilution is 1-1-150

Matthew[/QUOTE]

photomc · Aug 7, 2004

Rodinal 1:100 Semi-Stand Develpment

roy said:
photomc said:

also - does semi-stand development work well with roll film

In my experience, it does. In the thread "FP4+ grain in Rodinal" of a few weeks ago, I mentioned that I had successfully developed an out of date film in several years old developer. I did not give it 30 minutes, more like 20 but the whole thing was an experiment and, although there was nothing on the film that was of major importance, the whole film was good and each shot was a bonus. Shoot off a spare film and try it.

Click to expand...

Well, went out today and shot a roll of FP4+, then developed it in Rodinal 1:100, 30 minutes agitation was maybe every 8 minutes for 10 seconds. First thing I noticed was the developer came out pretty yellow, which was a little more noticeable than 1:50 or so. The negatives came out nice..now I must admit the test was a bit of a bust for the following reasons..forgot my light meter so exposure was base off of 'Sunny f/16', EI was 64. Then I seem to have something either in the camera or on the insert that keeps scratching the film, and last of all the light was flat - overcast, hazy, etc.

I will try to attach photo, if not will add it to technical gallery.

Thanks,

roy · Aug 8, 2004

photomc said:
Well, went out today and shot a roll of FP4+, then developed it in Rodinal 1:100 First thing I noticed was the developer came out pretty yellow, which was a little more noticeable than 1:50 or so. The negatives came out nice

At least you have something to go on if you wish to experiment more. I have to say that my Rodinal started dark brown and the colour only improved with dilution !

titrisol · Aug 8, 2004

Nice photo, is the "halo" around the church something you expected?
It seesm to me that the clouds around it are much brighter than the rest.

Stand development

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