Stand development with PMK and Xtol

[David Bigeleisen]

I've begun experimenting with stand development. My first try has been with R09, sometimes known as Rodinal. So far,so good. Has anyone tried stand development with PMK? If so, what dilution and development times are you using?
I have the same question for Xtol.
I'm developing Ilford FP4+ in a closed tank.

Thank you in advance.

David

 

[chuckroast]

PMK is not a good candidate for stand. Its very high aerial oxidation rate mandate nearly constant agitation to avoid staining.

If you want to try stand development with a staining developer, both 510 Pyro and Pyrocat-HDC do this well (once you master stand techniques for things like film suspension).

 

[retina_restoration]

You have to agitate PMK every 15 seconds or you get uneven, mottled development. This is a known fact. You simply cannot use PMK for "stand" development.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

It is said that developers that are high on Sulphite are not good for stand developing. You may need to dilute XTol substantially if you want to give it a try.

You could also consider stand/semi-stand in D23 dilution 1+9 with Lye addition à la @chuckroast.

 

[chuckroast]

It is said that developers that are high on Sulphite are not good for stand developing. You may need to dilute XTol substantially if you want to give it a try.

You could also consider stand/semi-stand in D23 dilution 1+9 with Lye addition à la @chuckroast.

In fairness, it was @Raghu Kuvempunagar "s idea in the first place.

 

[koraks]

I have the same question for Xtol.

Not suitable for stand development, period.

Btw, there's been a lot of discussion on stand development; definitely give it a thorough read to understand:
1: What the potential benefits, if any, are
2: What problems to expect and how to avoid them

 

[Peter Schrager]

Xtol 1:2 semi-stand works beautifully
fill; shake
at 1 minute shake then every 3 minutes
cures highlight issues with tmax films
been doing this for many years now

 

[John Wiegerink]

We

Xtol 1:2 semi-stand works beautifully
fill; shake
at 1 minute shake then every 3 minutes
cures highlight issues with tmax films
been doing this for many years now

We're talking stand here and not semi-stand. I have used Rodinal for so-called stand development, but not other developers. Even then my so-called stand was semi-stand with one agitation cycle at 30 min of the total 60 minute developing time. True stand is no agitation until development time is reached. I really don't know what is meant by "semi-stand"? Is it anything that is longer than the manufactures recommended time? If the manufacture calls for agitation every 30 sec. and I use 1 minute is that semi-stand? I'd rather call a 3 minute agitation time something different, but I guess we'll call it "semi-stand" for now.

 

[koraks]

at 1 minute shake then every 3 minutes

I don't call that 'semi-stand'. That's just mildly reduced agitation.
In my book:
Stand = no agitation beyond the first 30 seconds or so
semi-stand = agitation at 15-30 minute intervals
Reduced agitation = agitation cycles at 2-5 minutes
Normal intermittent agitation = 30-60 minute cycles
Constant agitation = at most a few seconds pause at a time

 

[chuckroast]

I don't call that 'semi-stand'. That's just mildly reduced agitation.
In my book:
Stand = no agitation beyond the first 30 seconds or so
semi-stand = agitation at 15-30 minute intervals
Reduced agitation = agitation cycles at 2-5 minutes
Normal intermittent agitation = 30-60 minute cycles
Constant agitation = at most a few seconds pause at a time

Steve Sherman/Sandy King suggested something similar:

Stand: 1 initial agitation only

Semistand: 1 initial agitation, and another at the halfway mark

Extreme Minimal Agitation (EMA): 1 initial agitation and 2-3 evenly spaced agitations over an extended time period

These all have two common denominators: Highly dilute developer and long/extended development times.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I don't call that 'semi-stand'. That's just mildly reduced agitation.
In my book:
Stand = no agitation beyond the first 30 seconds or so
semi-stand = agitation at 15-30 minute intervals
Reduced agitation = agitation cycles at 2-5 minutes
Normal intermittent agitation = 30-60 minute cycles
Constant agitation = at most a few seconds pause at a time

Ah, yes I agree with everything you say here. I was just wondering if it was me and my understanding what "semi-stand" meant or should mean.

 

[David Bigeleisen]

PMK is not a good candidate for stand. Its very high aerial oxidation rate mandate nearly constant agitation to avoid staining.

If you want to try stand development with a staining developer, both 510 Pyro and Pyrocat-HDC do this well (once you master stand techniques for things like film suspension).

Dear Chuckroast:

Thank you for your comment about using PMK for stand development. There is universal agreement that PMK won't work for stand development.
At your suggestion, I have just purchased some 510 Pyro developer. What times do you suggest for stand development?
Thank you in advance.

David

 

[Augustus Caesar]

Dear Chuckroast:

Thank you for your comment about using PMK for stand development. There is universal agreement that PMK won't work for stand development.
At your suggestion, I have just purchased some 510 Pyro developer. What times do you suggest for stand development?
Thank you in advance.

David

Don't do stand development!

 

[retina_restoration]

Don't do stand development!

Agreed. This is mostly a mythical process that has few (if any) merits and only makes things more challenging. Getting it right isn't as straightforward as some would have you believe.

 

[chuckroast]

Dear Chuckroast:

Thank you for your comment about using PMK for stand development. There is universal agreement that PMK won't work for stand development.
At your suggestion, I have just purchased some 510 Pyro developer. What times do you suggest for stand development?
Thank you in advance.

David

For most films, I'd start at 1:300, with an initial 1 min agitation, 10sec at 16min, and pull it at 30 min.

Using the correct suspension and reels is critical. See:

tundra/Stand-Development

gitbucket.tundraware.com

Remember that 510 Pyro has pyrogallol in it which isn't good for humans, so take care to wear nitrile gloves, eye protection, clothing protection, and keep skin clean if any splashes on you. IOW, treat it with care and keep it off your person and your clothing.

 

[koraks]

I have just purchased some 510 Pyro developer. What times do you suggest for stand development?

None.
It has two key drawbacks:
1: It's very prone to uneven development.
2: It oxidizes while you're standing there looking at it, so you end up with lots of stain all over the negatives.
#2 may not be a problem depending what you're going to do with the negatives, but it's a real PITA if you want to do any alt. process/UV printing. #1 is a problem either way.

Pyrocat HD doesn't suffer from both issues as badly and would be a better option to try out IMO.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I've begun experimenting with stand development. My first try has been with R09, sometimes known as Rodinal. So far,so good. Has anyone tried stand development with PMK? If so, what dilution and development times are you using?
I have the same question for Xtol.
I'm developing Ilford FP4+ in a closed tank.

Thank you in advance.

David

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