Stand Development --- Should I overexpose the film too?

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dcy

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My very first attempt to develop B&W film was almost a year ago. I used Rodinal + stand development and the result was awful. Since then I have learned that my negatives were "thin" which means they were insufficiently developed. I think I remember hearing at the time that stand development does something similar to a "pull". Thinking back to my thin negatives, I guess that makes sense.

My question is: If stand development is similar to a pull, does that mean I can get good negatives by overexposing the film?

So if I'm shooting Kentmere 400, I could set my camera to ISO 200 or even ISO 100, and then stand develop. Does this make sense, or am I way off base? If this strategy works, how much should I overexpose the film by? Does it depend on the film?
 

MattKing

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Welcome to Photrio.
First, you should understand that I really don't think much of stand development as a general purpose technique.
Instead, it is a specialized technique, that gives certain benefits in very particular circumstances, at the expense of certain detriments which, in most cases for my purposes, outweigh the benefits.
In my experience, more photographers - in particular less experienced photographers - end up with thin negatives because they give the film too little exposure, not because of an issue with how they develop the film.
And many of those photographers than compound the issue by either developing the film too much, or trying something else, like stand development.
A good, well exposed and well developed negative looks "thin" to the relatively inexperienced naked eye. Then when you either print it or digitize it, the full range of tones is revealed.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Semi-stand is a safer route, that pretty much accomplishes the same thing. I always give a stop more from box speed (or more), regardless is development technique. Depends on how important the shadow detail is, and what look I'm after. Remember that when employing either stand or semi-stand, to give ample, continuous initial agitation, for at least 90 seconds.
My experience is mainly with Pyrocat-HD, not Rodinal.
 

mshchem

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You can get weird streaks from "bromide drag" as it's called. I would stick to the Kodak or Ilford agitation recommendations. (Or Adox if you're using their Rodinal)
 

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dcy

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Show us a backlit photo of the negatives that you consider "thin" - we might be able to help.
Here are some hints on ways to do that: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...nsparencies-for-troubleshooting-purposes.461/

Man... That was several months ago. I'm not sure where I have the negatives. But I do have a couple of photos that I took of them at the time [attached]. Sorry they're not properly backlist. But I think you'd agree that they don't show as much detail as the ones in the page you linked to. I can also tell you that, in hindsight, I chose a poor film for my first roll. --- It was Wofen NP400.

Trying to learn from that experience, for my next film I grabbed Kentmere 400 and I switched to the standard recommended process for 1+50 Rodinal. Once again, I don't know where I have the negatives, but I also have a photo that I took of them at the time [attached]. These looked much better, and they are much closer to the negatives in the page you linked to.

At the time, my take-away was that stand development sucks. But from what you wrote, it now sounds like I might have underexposed Wolfen NP400; I'm going to speculate that the film's true ISO is much less than 400.

In any event, over the past several months I've been doing other things. Most recently I've been shooting color and sending the film to a lab. Then I decided I want to develop film at home again. A few days ago I asked a question about C-41, and today I thought I'd ask about B&W stand development.

Can you give me a sense of what the downsides of stand development are? As a complete beginner, it looked "easy" on paper.
 

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koraks

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As a complete beginner, it looked "easy" on paper.

But normal agitation is just as easy, takes less time and involves less risk of uneven development. The alleged self-compensating nature of stand development is IMO often overstated. This self-compensation is why it's supposed to work - shadows would be allowed to continue to develop as developer exhausts in the highlights. In practice, this only works to an extent, and under certain conditions. It requires that the developer is balanced on the brink of exhaustion to begin with, which is why this is done with very dilute developers like rodinal or pyrocat, and it doesn't work at all with developers like XTOL or D76. Even so, the developer will have to be diluted to just the right amount to make the most of this compensating effect and that's a bit of a hit & miss endeavor. Self-compensation also relies on an absolute lack of mobility of developer through the emulsion, which should prevent fresh developer to be supplied to highlight areas that must hold themselves back. However, in free-standing watery liquid at room temperature, mobility is far from zero and there will actually be a significant amount of 'self-agitation' and diffusion through the emulsion.

Theoretically, stand developmnet should keep highlights in check even if you extend the development time significantly. In practice, this isn't the case and highlights do actually block up. As you've found out, there's no standard recipe for stand development. Films respond differently w.r.t. the rate of development. You'd have to adjust the dilution and time for stand development to match the film.

As @Andrew O'Neill says above, the main drawbacks of stand development are unevenness. This manifests in several ways; especially on sheet film, mottling can be a problem. Bromide drag tends to manifest on 35mm in particular due to the sprocket holes, although I believe that 99% of the 'bromide drag' cases are in fact instances of surge marks that result from differences in flow patterns (see remarks on auto-agitation above). The reason I believe this is that the sprocket holes tend to leave 'trailers' across the film and these are alleged to be bromide drag trails - but the sprocket hole areas of 35mm film typically do not (or barely) release any bromide during development, so that theory doesn't really hold. However, the sprocket holes do affect how liquid moves across the film and this can create differences in the rate of supply of fresh developer (through inherent motion of the liquid even without external agitation) to the film. Extending this thought, you often see uneven development patterns along edges of sheets or rolls of film with stand development routines, and this unevenness often correlates to geometry of the tank, reels (and e.g. in 35mm film, the film itself). I've run into this myself when using a Mod54 holder for 4x5, where the 'fingers' of the holder created surge markes that extended into the image area on 4x5" sheets.

Overall, there's IMO no good case to be made for stand development. There can be merit to reduced agitation, which can be done to different degrees - e.g. a long development time of something like 45 minutes with 2 or 3 bouts of agitation at 10-15 minute intervals, or a somewhat shorter development time (12-20 minutes or so) with agitation intervals at 3 minutes. What this achieves is some compression, but more importantly (IMO) increased edge effects that enhance contrasty edges in the image and thus affect the apparent sharpness of the images. This result can be very subtle (difficult to distinguish at all) or sometimes very extreme (I've had cases where it was just way too much) and it can be difficult to control.

If you're just starting out, the best advice I can give you is to just stick to the normal agitation procedures that have been tried and tested for well over a century and that will give good, consistent results, every time.
 

loccdor

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Stand development is only similar to a pull in that it reduces contrast.

Semi-stand also reduces contrast, with much lower risk of bromide drag.

Normal pull processing reduces contrast with no risk of bromide drag. However, you lose the edge effects of semi-stand.

The recommendation is to expose for the shadows with wide-latitude negative film. Setting your camera to a lower ISO will more or less achieve this if you don't have an incident or spot meter.
 

Milpool

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My very first attempt to develop B&W film was almost a year ago. I used Rodinal + stand development and the result was awful. Since then I have learned that my negatives were "thin" which means they were insufficiently developed. I think I remember hearing at the time that stand development does something similar to a "pull". Thinking back to my thin negatives, I guess that makes sense.

My question is: If stand development is similar to a pull, does that mean I can get good negatives by overexposing the film?

So if I'm shooting Kentmere 400, I could set my camera to ISO 200 or even ISO 100, and then stand develop. Does this make sense, or am I way off base? If this strategy works, how much should I overexpose the film by? Does it depend on the film?

A pull simply means developing less than one normally would. Reducing the degree of development reduces overall contrast. It does not relate to emulsion speed in the way many people assume it does.

Stand development is subject to the same variables as development with agitation. The amount of time, and temperature control will determine the contrast, so it is a mistake to assume stand development = low contrast / pull. The results will also be very variable depending on the type of developer (and the film). Consider one example below. We have all read about 1-hour stand-development in Rodinal 1+100 as a supposed all-purpose method. Well, it turns out that might be way too long with a particular film.

The bottom line is you need to exercise at least as much care and control over stand development as you do with regular processing. The same applies to variations on this theme (reduced/minimal agitation etc.). The question then is, what is to be gained, and are these things unique to stand/minimal agitation development?

Possible goals - highly variable depending on developer / film
  • Enhanced edge effects
  • Flattening of highlight contrast (and/or shadows) relative to midtones
  • Slight increase in emulsion speed / EI
Tradeoffs
  • More difficult to control degree of development
  • Poor uniformity
 

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dcy

dcy

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Possible goals - highly variable depending on developer / film
  • Enhanced edge effects
  • Flattening of highlight contrast (and/or shadows) relative to midtones
  • Slight increase in emulsion speed / EI
Tradeoffs
  • More difficult to control degree of development
  • Poor uniformity

That's very helpful. Yeah, for me those tradeoffs outweigh the potential benefits. The one and only thing that made stand development attractive was not having to worry about screwing up the development time or agitation --- "am I agitating the right way?... Is this too much?... crap I forget to set my timer!"
 

MattKing

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Don't worry too much about agitating the "right" way.
Pick a common method e.g. the Kodak method of 30 seconds continuous at the beginning, plus 5 seconds every 30 seconds thereafter.
Or the Ilford way of 30 seconds continuous at the beginning, plus 10 seconds every 60 seconds thereafter.
With each batch being a mixture of reasonably energetic inversion and a little twisting - enough that the liquid tumbles through the reel.
And just do it consistently.
The results are much less sensitive to variation in agitation then they are to variation in time or temperature.
 
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Downside: severe tonal compression. Bromide drag. Mottling...

I concur. And the odds of getting all three of these defects are high. Add to that a loss of film speed, so yes - you need to give at least one stop more exposure than "big speed" to get usable negs.

Like many people here, I have used this technique and contrary to the many articles on the web (the ones that suggest this is a kind of "cure-all" for your bad camera techniques), I got negs that suffered from a myriad of problems, the most conspicuous being bromide accumulation in the bottom of the tank, and uneven development across the negative.

Can you make "stand" development work? Yes, you can, but it may take a lot of testing and ruined film to find a way to use it reliably. But the bottom line is that you can achieve tonal scale contraction and high acutance with edge effects simply by selecting a developer known for such qualities. There are far easier, more reliable ways to get there, IME.
 

Milpool

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That's very helpful. Yeah, for me those tradeoffs outweigh the potential benefits. The one and only thing that made stand development attractive was not having to worry about screwing up the development time or agitation --- "am I agitating the right way?... Is this too much?... crap I forget to set my timer!"

I guarantee two things as long as you put care into your work:

1. You can do this, and do it well. It isn't difficult, nor is it complicated
2. You're not leaving anything on the table quality-wise if you choose to follow some basic directions from Kodak or Ilford
 

chuckroast

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My very first attempt to develop B&W film was almost a year ago. I used Rodinal + stand development and the result was awful. Since then I have learned that my negatives were "thin" which means they were insufficiently developed. I think I remember hearing at the time that stand development does something similar to a "pull". Thinking back to my thin negatives, I guess that makes sense.

My question is: If stand development is similar to a pull, does that mean I can get good negatives by overexposing the film?

So if I'm shooting Kentmere 400, I could set my camera to ISO 200 or even ISO 100, and then stand develop. Does this make sense, or am I way off base? If this strategy works, how much should I overexpose the film by? Does it depend on the film?

I have done a ton of semistand and Extreme Minimal Agitation over the past 4 or so years. Done properly, you should see full box speed, not a reduction in speed (or nearly so). Shadows develop much more slowly than highlights. When you leave film in developer for a long time, it gives them time to fully develop, thereby achieving box speed or something close to it. This assumes your light meter is reasonably calibrated and your exposure us properly placed.

However done properly is fidgety and error prone and requires very careful technique. You have to find the right developer, the right dilution, the right time, and (very importantly) the right way to suspend the film so that development byproducts during standing can be pulled way by gravity and don't get trapped inside of the suspension system.

For this reason - IMHO - if you are new to film development, it is NOT recommended that you start with long, dilute, low agitation schemes. You should work instead to master conventional agitation methods first. These more esoteric schemes like stand, two bath, SLIMT and the like should be attempted only after you really master how to develop the "normal" way.
 
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For this reason - IMHO - if you are new to film development, it is NOT recommended that you start with long, dilute, low agitation schemes. You should work instead to master conventional agitation methods first. These more esoteric schemes like stand, two bath, SLIMT and the like should be attempted only after you really master how to develop the "normal" way.

This is the best advice you could possibly receive.
 

Paul Howell

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That's very helpful. Yeah, for me those tradeoffs outweigh the potential benefits. The one and only thing that made stand development attractive was not having to worry about screwing up the development time or agitation --- "am I agitating the right way?... Is this too much?... crap I forget to set my timer!"

I think you may be overthinking this a bit. Following Kodak's or ILford's recommendations is not hard, here is link to the data sheep for Trix 400, same process will work with most 35mm and MF film.

 
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