Stand development question?

Bruce Appel · Jan 30, 2006

Ok, I just did a roll of hp5+ in hc110 1:100 from stock. 30 minutes, agitated first minute, agitated twice halfway through. Glancing at the negatives hanging wet, they do not look much different to my eye than what that film/ developer usually does.
So, when they dry, what, exactly, should I be looking for to assess for edge effects and micro contrast changes?

c6h6o3 · Jan 30, 2006

Bruce Appel said:
So, when they dry, what, exactly, should I be looking for to assess for edge effects and micro contrast changes?

Print them. Enhanced micro contrast will jump right off of the paper at you. You won't have to look for anything.

vet173 · Jan 31, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
Print them. Enhanced micro contrast will jump right off of the paper at you. You won't have to look for anything.

That pretty much covers this thread.

argus · Jan 31, 2006

c6h6o3 said:
Print them. Enhanced micro contrast will jump right off of the paper at you. You won't have to look for anything.

Supposed you exposed correctly

G

Steve Sherman · Jan 31, 2006

I just did a roll of hp5+ in hc110 1:100 from stock.

HC 110 is thought to contain Sodium Sulfite which promotes silver migration which directly impacts the potential for increased adjancecy effects.

Try another developer, such as a pyro based developer or Rodinal

noseoil · Jan 31, 2006

One thing you may notice is the difference in shadows. Not sure about the HC 110, but there should be a richness of detail in shadow textures, which is more pronounced than normally seen with "standard" development. tim

c6h6o3 · Jan 31, 2006

My point above is that you can't tell much until you print them. Then the enhanced edge effects will either be there or they won't. But the effects are very hard to see in a negative, at least at first.

Bruce Appel · Jan 31, 2006

Maybe hc110 was not the best choice. I printed a few, and except for some extra grain don't see anything different.
The developer I have standardized on is pc-tea. Would it be a good candidate to try?

avandesande · Jan 31, 2006

look for a straight edge of white against black. it will look alot like unsharp mask in photoshop.

c6h6o3 · Jan 31, 2006

Bruce Appel said:
The developer I have standardized on is pc-tea. Would it be a good candidate to try?

Don't know. I would think, however, that anything with metol in it would not work so great. I've gotten good results with both Pyrocat HD and Jay DeFehr's 510 pyro. I don't know what's in PC-TEA.

c6h6o3 · Jan 31, 2006

BTW, Scott Killian does stand development with rollfilm in Rodinal to stunning effect. He lets them sit for an hour. I don't know what his dilution is.

df cardwell · Jan 31, 2006

Metol is superb for semi-stand / standing development.

PC-TEA may be a perfect choice: I've not used it, Sandy King has said good things about it.

TRY IT !

.

fhovie · Jan 31, 2006

You have to use a developer that allows for silver migration. I don't think PC TEA will give you much of that. It seems to excel at being sharp by nailing the grain in place without any smoothing or accutance building properties. XTOL at least has some sulpfite in it and might give you some solvent action. 510Pyro also lacks the solvent action for Mackie lines to develop. I have used Pyrocat for one hour and seen some very very strong lines form - too much for enlargement. 30 minutes is better for enlarging. Do choose a developer with sulfite though or you may not get what you hoped for.

Bruce Appel · Jan 31, 2006

Well I am goign to have to try pc tea. This sounds like uncharted territory, I love it. So far in this thread, have been told to avoid develpers with sulfite, use developers with sulfite, metol is no good, metol is needed.
A couple potential problems I see with the pc-tea is getting the dilution right, ( it already is diluted 1:50 for standard use-how low can you go?), and I think pc tea produces a failry high level of fog that may become an issue with the longer times.
I am going to shoot a roll real quick and give it a go.

sanking · Jan 31, 2006

PC-TEA has worked very well for me with moderate dilutions and normal developing times. However, it is not well-buffered and may exhaust with the high dilutions and long development times of stand development. Whether this is a good or a bad thing you really can only know by testing it yourself.

Speculation is interesting but things often don't come out the way we speculate they should.

Sandy

Bruce Appel said:
Well I am goign to have to try pc tea. This sounds like uncharted territory, I love it. So far in this thread, have been told to avoid develpers with sulfite, use developers with sulfite, metol is no good, metol is needed.
A couple potential problems I see with the pc-tea is getting the dilution right, ( it already is diluted 1:50 for standard use-how low can you go?), and I think pc tea produces a failry high level of fog that may become an issue with the longer times.
I am going to shoot a roll real quick and give it a go.

sanking · Jan 31, 2006

You would need to measure the working pH of PC-TEA at any given dilution. You will find that the pH changes a great deal as you dilute it more and more, which I assume puts it quickly near its buffering capacity. Since PC-TEA only contains ascorbic acid you only need take into consideration the threshold pH of ascorbic.

ROLLO-TEA contains both pyrogallol and phenidone, so the combinations has a lower pH threshold than either of the two together, and lower than ascorbic acid by itself I believe, so the change in pH with dilution is not as significant as the change with PC-TEA. I presume that means that its buffering capaicty is better.

But some of this is just speculation as it relates to stand development. As I suggested, one would have to test the two developers at a number of dilutions to know for sure how well they might perform in creating enhanced adjacency effects.

Sandy

jdef said:
Sandy, could you tell me the difference in the buffering capcity of Rollo-TEA vs PC-TEA?

Jay

sanking · Jan 31, 2006

I forgot about the phenidone. So what is the pH threshold of activity of ascorbic and phenidone? Is it lower or higher than pyrogallol and phenidone?

Sandy

jdef said:
Sandy,

PC-TEA contains both ascorbic acid and phenidone, so wouldn't the same principle that says a supperadditive pair will behave differently than either partner alone, apply equally to both Rollo-TEA and PC-TEA?

Jay

gainer · Jan 31, 2006

If you have a hankering for sulphite or sulfite, by all means use it. There is no reason it cannot be added to the working solution of PC-TEA. People add it to Rodinal. If you think a little borax or metaborate would help ease your mind about buffering, add some of it too. Whatever you do, compare it with what you did before. Remember, the mechanism of ascorbate developer is different from PQ or MQ in that the products of its oxidation are acidic and tend to decelerate local development, as does the released bromide.
There is no absolute law that says what dilution must be used for stand development. I have used the 1 + 50 dilution for stand development with 50% more time than with agitation. Another approach is to make PC-Glycol, dilute it, say, 1+50 and add however much of whatever alkali you think will work best for standing. If you use TEA, the amount corresponding to PC-TEA would be equal to the amount of PC-Glycol you use. Cutting that in half will considerably increase development time. Another ploy might be adding a little boric acid to the working solution, thus reducing rate without reducing capacity.

Bruce Appel · Jan 31, 2006

Ok, I just souped two rolls of fortepan 100 in pctea as a stand developer. I diluted it 1:100, went 35 minutes at 66 degrees. Agitated first minute, 3 inversions halfway through. The negatives are hanging wet, but I can see definite edge effects, that I did not see with the hc110. Of coarse I haven't tried printing them yet, but at this stage I would say that pc tea has potential for stand/ minimal agitation techniques.

gainer · Jan 31, 2006

Just got out of the darkroom after contemplating my navel while stand developing a test of 35 mm Arista II 100 (whatever that is these days) in PC-TEA 1 + 100, 70 F, 30 minutes with agitation for a few seconds at 0, 10 and 20 minutes. The results are very good. Grain is fine and resolution is high. I had a reflection density wedge in the scene and all the steps show in the print. I am sure that 500 ml of that working solution will develop 36 exposures of 35 mm, or at least one sheet of 8x10. Don't be afraid to try it. You might like it.

gainer · Jan 31, 2006

P.S.
My latest recipe for PC-TEA allows a little water. To 100 grams of ascorbic or isoascorbic acid, add 75 ml of very hot water, and as soon as it dissolves add TEA to make a liter. The TEA should be warm enough to make it pour like water. You won't have to go over 150 F with the TEA. Add 2.5 grams of phenidone and you're done. The small amount of water seems to have no adverse effect on storage.

sanking · Feb 1, 2006

What color is the stock solution when you mix this way?

I mixed up a liter of PC-TEA a couple of years ago, heating the TEA to around 200F as I recall, and the solution is amber in color. It still seems to work fine, though.

Sandy

gainer said:
P.S.
My latest recipe for PC-TEA allows a little water. To 100 grams of ascorbic or isoascorbic acid, add 75 ml of very hot water, and as soon as it dissolves add TEA to make a liter. The TEA should be warm enough to make it pour like water. You won't have to go over 150 F with the TEA. Add 2.5 grams of phenidone and you're done. The small amount of water seems to have no adverse effect on storage.

gainer · Feb 1, 2006

sanking said:
What color is the stock solution when you mix this way?

I mixed up a liter of PC-TEA a couple of years ago, heating the TEA to around 200F as I recall, and the solution is amber in color. It still seems to work fine, though.

Sandy

I don't think the color has much to do with how well it works. Dow, in their brochure, says it darkens when heated, but doesn't say that heating has any other effect. It's a little disturbing to us photographers who generally consider dark colored developer as a prelude to failure. Of course, we have Rodinal which can be black as tar and still work, and Xtol which can be clear and dead.

The short answer is that the color when first mixed will be lighter. I seem to be having trouble in my old age with producing short answers.

Stand development question?

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