Sprint Chemistry: reasons not to use it

removed account4 · Nov 17, 2014

just to make sure i wasn't full of BS ...
i just got off the phone with one of the good-folks at sprint a few mins ago
and he reaffirmed the founder of sprint had absolutely nothing to do
with MIT .. went to school in buffalo ny, then to risd and taught at risd.
he created the chemistry on his own, in his home and then on a larger scale in pawtucket ...

its rotten students at MIT are somehow getting the glory that belongs to someone else

===

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

jnanian said:
just to make sure i wasn't full of BS ...
i just got off the phone with one of the good-folks at sprint a few mins ago
and he reaffirmed the founder of sprint had absolutely nothing to do
with MIT .. went to school in buffalo ny, then to risd and taught at risd.
he created the chemistry on his own, in his home and then on a larger scale in pawtucket ...

its rotten students at MIT are somehow getting the glory that belongs to someone else

===

MIT students are so smart they probably had the idea first and transmitted it into his brain

Thanks for clearing that up, glad the misinformation stops here.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

MattKing said:
The Ilford citric acid based stop is definitely nicer smelling than the Kodak when they are at working dilution.

Sprint is diluted 1+9, Ilford is diluted 1+19 and Kodak is diluted 1+31 - I can work with each.

I use the Kodak for film (usually at half strength) and the Ilford for prints (frequently at half strength). My reason for using both? The Kodak is cheaper, and I can get more use out of a single bottle, but the Ilford smells better when I'm developing prints in trays.

Thanks, I liked the "indicator" part of it all, which ilfords doesn't seem to have?

OK, so my cart looks like this... (There are more things).

So I guess for now, the problem is solved?

THANKS GUYS!!!!

My immediate hesitation was that I'd rather focus on using a system that works well for both film and paper, I obviously have a system that works well and I don't have any kind of issue with whatsoever and that is with using all Ilford products.

But because I'm starting to do printing at home, the cost increases tremendously if I continue using all Ilford products.

So let's hope this system works

Now if they only made Spigots to attach to the screw caps I could really avoid air contamination and such since sprint comes like boxed wine in a bladder. Lol.

OK

Since I have you all here, does selenium toner matter which brand?

And what's with this gold stuff? It says if you use it you will NEVER have faded prints, it doesn't just say "archival" but literally says it will never fade, that's a pretty bold claim, or GOLD claim

What do you think?

Yes I know toner is dangerous and I won't be messing with it for a while but I would like to know thoughts.

winger · Nov 17, 2014

We used to have spigots on the boxes of Sprint stuff when I took classes at the Danforth. Maybe they're sold separately or maybe that was something Newtonville Camera tracked down and provided.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2014

I don't think there is a functional difference between Kodak and Ilford Selenium toner. There is a very good chance that it is made in the same factory (Tetenal in Germany) and may actually be identical.

The square Ilford bottles are nicer, but it is easier to pull off the Kodak sealing tab when you first open it .

And as for the spigots: Dead Link Removed

bdial · Nov 17, 2014

The Sprint products I am familiar with that are packed in cubes do come use spigots, FWIW, though I don't know if they need to be ordered separately.

I use Ilford selenium, as it was easy to order from wherever I ordered it. Presumably it has tested compatibility with Ilford papers, where Kodak's may not, but I don't think it makes a big difference.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

MattKing said:
I don't think there is a functional difference between Kodak and Ilford Selenium toner. There is a very good chance that it is made in the same factory (Tetenal in Germany) and may actually be identical.

The square Ilford bottles are nicer, but it is easier to pull off the Kodak sealing tab when you first open it .

And as for the spigots: Dead Link Removed

Thanks Matt!!!! So cool!

Also, with my other Ilford bottles, the sealing caps aren't great and the kodak ones were much better when I used to buy kodak, is the bottle of selenium by Ilford better because it's squared properly and fits nicer on a shelf? Or is the lid better? I always have to transfer my fixer into a glass amber bottle because the Ilford bottle child safe lock here stripped. I've had to cut the bottle open before to use it when I couldn't get the lid off.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2014

The square Ilford bottle seems to be heavier than the bottles they use for fixer, and seems as well to have a heavier "child-proof" cap.

By the way, selenium toner isn't inherently dangerous, it just requires more care than some of the other chemicals.

If you keep it off of your skin (wear gloves), and are careful to clean up any spills, it can be handled with confidence. You wouldn't want to breath in a bunch of dried selenium toner dust (high exposures may be carcinogenic) but that is the case with a lot of otherwise benign stuff.

If you do spill or spray any of it, the residue turns red as it dries, so it is easy to catch any drops you might have missed.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Ilford's has an indicator also.

Does it? Mine always starts clear and my fixer exhausts before the stop turns color, at least with film... Hmmm

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

MattKing said:
The square Ilford bottle seems to be heavier than the bottles they use for fixer, and seems as well to have a heavier "child-proof" cap.

By the way, selenium toner isn't inherently dangerous, it just requires more care than some of the other chemicals.

If you keep it off of your skin (wear gloves), and are careful to clean up any spills, it can be handled with confidence. You wouldn't want to breath in a bunch of dried selenium toner dust (high exposures may be carcinogenic) but that is the case with a lot of otherwise benign stuff.

If you do spill or spray any of it, the residue turns red as it dries, so it is easy to catch any drops you might have missed.

Thanks

Photo Engineer · Nov 17, 2014

The spigots for cubitainers are difficult for a novice to insert. If you do it wrong, you can lose a lot of chemistry very quickly. So if you do buy that "add on" for convenience, practice first with an inexpensive / harmless chemical container first.

Don't ask me how I know this!

PE

MattKing · Nov 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Does it? Mine always starts clear and my fixer exhausts before the stop turns color, at least with film... Hmmm

Stop bath capacity with film (or RC papers) will vary widely, depending on your tank and how you drain between developer and stop.

The real test is with fibre based papers.

Sprint appears to have designed their stop bath to have the same print capacity as their fixer. Ilford stop baths seem to have less capacity/litre than their fixers - probably to serve as a warning about potential fixer exhaustion.

The capacity of stop bath can be manipulated somewhat by adjustment of dilution. Doing that with developers or fixers is not such a good idea.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2014

Greg Davis said:
In my experience, the Kodak and Ilford selenium toners do not produce identical results when diluted the same. I found the Ilford to be more active and needed additional dilution to make prints look like those toned with Kodak.

I'd go with Greg's advice on this. I expect he does a lot more toning than I do, and any time I've switched back and forth (due to local availability) I've usually had a time delay between finishing off with one old batch of one brand's toner, and starting with a new batch of the other brand of toner.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Although capacities will always vary somewhat depending on volumes, dilutions, throughput and even the tonality of the prints, I wouldn't suggest relying on the exhaustion of one chemical to signal the exhaustion of other chemicals. The indicator in the stop bath is just for the stop bath. And it only tells you roughly about the pH of the stop bath. It's a worst-case "fail safe", but you can even get a rough idea by simply rubbing your fingers together after dipping them in the stop bath. If they feel slimy or "smooth" (as opposed to the "harder", "squeaky" feeling an acidic solution has), the pH is too high and it is time to change it. Also monitor your print throughput vs manufacturer recommendations. The recommendations typically err on the conservative side, but here's some simple non-technical advice for you: don't skimp on your chemicals and don't try to push them to the absolute limit in an attempt to save a penny here and there. Ever notice how many APUG threads are about mysterious things going wrong, stains etc. and the poster tells you he's been re-using a liter of fixer or stop bath for 10 years, or mixing it at 1/10 the strength and extending the time by 10x etc.?

Thanks, good point.

However I'm chemically sensitive, I don't ever touch the chemistry with my bare hands, I even use thick bulky chemical gloves for even picking up the glass bottles just to set them up.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

Greg Davis said:
If you have never put a spigot on a cubitainer, lay it on its back and pull the bladder out of the box opening, then screw on the spigot and make sure the spigot is off before tilting the box forward. Also, the spigots drip when closed, so you may want to keep the box on its back when not in use to prevent that.

In my experience, the Kodak and Ilford selenium toners do not produce identical results when diluted the same. I found the Ilford to be more active and needed additional dilution to make prints look like those toned with Kodak.

Noted, thanks.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

MattKing said:
Stop bath capacity with film (or RC papers) will vary widely, depending on your tank and how you drain between developer and stop.

The real test is with fibre based papers.

Sprint appears to have designed their stop bath to have the same print capacity as their fixer. Ilford stop baths seem to have less capacity/litre than their fixers - probably to serve as a warning about potential fixer exhaustion.

The capacity of stop bath can be manipulated somewhat by adjustment of dilution. Doing that with developers or fixers is not such a good idea.

Hmm, if the stop indicates SOONER than the fixer is exhausted, it must simply not be very heavy in color change and I can't tell when pouring into my white filter.

I do a single pour in, swirl, pour out water wash between all baths.

removed account4 · Nov 17, 2014

some stop baths take what seems like forever to indicate ...

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 17, 2014

jnanian said:
some stop baths take what seems like forever to indicate ...

And some, like Sprint, smell nice.

I've used Sprint stop bath for a goodly long time. It does last a very long time. It goes from bright yellow to dark yellow, then it stays dark yellow/orange for a really long time, and finally it turns.

The Harvey's 777 Panthermic developer turns the Sprint (and other brands) stop bath green unless I use a water rinse first, though. That's mildly annoying.

-

In general I find the Sprint system to be very good. I have used all of their products, even the fixer alum hardener (I think they have one). I've never been disappointed with any part of the system.

Photo Engineer · Nov 17, 2014

Greg Davis said:
If you have never put a spigot on a cubitainer, lay it on its back and pull the bladder out of the box opening, then screw on the spigot and make sure the spigot is off before tilting the box forward. Also, the spigots drip when closed, so you may want to keep the box on its back when not in use to prevent that.

As a newbie in a lab, with your boss saying put this spigot in that 10G cubitainer of X, and then walks out, you do what he says and then you clean up your mess!

PE

Rick A · Nov 17, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
As a newbie in a lab, with your boss saying put this spigot in that 10G cubitainer of X, and then walks out, you do what he says and then you clean up your mess!

PE

Voice of experience?

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
As a newbie in a lab, with your boss saying put this spigot in that 10G cubitainer of X, and then walks out, you do what he says and then you clean up your mess!

PE

This one is just a screw cap... Not sure how to screw that up, but at least I've been warned.

MattKing · Nov 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
This one is just a screw cap... Not sure how to screw that up, but at least I've been warned.

Somehow I don't think that Stone has visualized the process yet.

It is amazing how chemicals seem to want to flow uphill when they are in a cubitainer.

StoneNYC · Nov 17, 2014

MattKing said:
Somehow I don't think that Stone has visualized the process yet.

It is amazing how chemicals seem to want to flow uphill when they are in a cubitainer.

I'm aware, the ones at school are the same

removed account4 · Nov 17, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
And some, like Sprint, smell nice.

I've used Sprint stop bath for a goodly long time. It does last a very long time. It goes from bright yellow to dark yellow, then it stays dark yellow/orange for a really long time, and finally it turns.

The Harvey's 777 Panthermic developer turns the Sprint (and other brands) stop bath green unless I use a water rinse first, though. That's mildly annoying.

-

In general I find the Sprint system to be very good. I have used all of their products, even the fixer alum hardener (I think they have one). I've never been disappointed with any part of the system.

i know what you mean thomas, that vanilla scent used to make me starved after a printing session.
i had to stop using it because i gained too much weight post-darkroom.

they do have alum hardener. i use it when i process self coated paper or plates. it is also in a 1L slug and i think i add 30cc to the fix ...
it doesn't process film very well, i have made the unfortunate mistake of diluting it 1:9 and processing i don't know 8 glass plates with it ..
if you like clear to glass film, i guess it works well, but no image,

erikg · Nov 17, 2014

Greg Davis said:
If you have never put a spigot on a cubitainer, lay it on its back and pull the bladder out of the box opening, then screw on the spigot and make sure the spigot is off before tilting the box forward. Also, the spigots drip when closed, so you may want to keep the box on its back when not in use to prevent that.

In my experience, the Kodak and Ilford selenium toners do not produce identical results when diluted the same. I found the Ilford to be more active and needed additional dilution to make prints look like those toned with Kodak.

Here's a note about the Sprint spigots. They don't make them of course, they are sourced and the manufacturer has given them a design "feature" that Sprint is aware of and that they wish wasn't there. That is that the spigot is fully closed at 90º but the spigot itself will turn past that point so if it's pushed as far as it can go towards the box the valve will be open just a little, causing it to drip. If you look at one closely you can see why. When I managed a student lab and we had the big cubes in use I gave up trying point this out and I just made drip cups from old milk bottles instead. In my own darkroom I just tip the box on it's back just as you do. Sprint has tried to source a different spigot but so far other samples are not threaded the same as the bladder they use. They have also asked the spigot maker to put a stop on the lever but they said it was too costly to change. You may have noticed that they are now applying labels to the bottom of the 5 liter cubes so the box is easily identifiable when it is tipped on it's back.

Sprint Chemistry: reasons not to use it

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Sprint Chemistry: reasons not to use it

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