Spotting fiber-based papers in 2023?

Helinophoto · Nov 15, 2023

Hello

I recently started printing again, after a few years of hiatus, due to space-challenges.

In my new place I dry the biggest fiber based papers (16" x 20" Slavich #3) by taping them to glass and finally after many years of utter frustration I can say that I get flat fiber prints!

Though, with enlargements comes dust and with dust comes spots, no matter how much I clean, brush and huff and puff with canned air.

So, reading through older threads, I see that it is usually recommended using a combination of ink like the Marshall that I see that B&H is carrying and very fine-tipped brushes.
My problem is that I live on the other side of the globe (well, almost), so having this shipped here will double/triple the price, due to shipping and import duties.

So I was wondering what can be used for spotting matter fiber prints and semi-glossy fiber prints, RC-prints etc.

I see that acrylic paint is pretty much available everywhere, this is water soluble, apparently, so can this be used, is the Marshall inks basically just acrylic paint?
What is the finish on acrylic paint? (matte, gloss?)

Is it a matter of adding water to pure black (acrylic) paint, until the correct shade of grey is achieved and, very carefully applying it with the help of a loupe, or is a whole set of paints necessary to cover everything from light gray, to black areas?

If acrylic paint is not the answer, what is the recommended paint to use for FB and RC papers...?
I really tried crawling through the threads online, but it seems like most of them refer back to Marshall paint, "china paint"(?) and stuff that was discontinued a decade ago.

removedacct3 · Nov 15, 2023

Helinophoto said:
I really tried crawling through the threads online, but it seems like most of them refer back to Marshall paint, "china paint"(?) and stuff that was discontinued a decade ago.

Have a look at Fotoimpex's retouching section. They carry quite an assortment of spotting brushes and dyes.

Retouching - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

DAVINCI Retouching Brush Restauro Kolinsky Red Sable 000 (3/0), DELTA 1 Spot Out Spotting Brush 3/0, DIAPHOTO Gloss-Fixer, Water Soluble, 60ml, DIAPHO ...

www.fotoimpex.com

koraks · Nov 15, 2023

Helinophoto said:
What is the finish on acrylic paint? (matte, gloss?)

Depends. It comes as either gloss or matte, depending on which base is used and also the pigments mixed in with it. However, in my experience, black acrylic paint tends to dry up always slightly matt and it will probably look ugly on a glossy FB print when viewed at an angle! I suspect some kind of (stable) dye is a better choice since that sinks into the emulsion and therefore would not alter the surface of the print as much. I think this is also why historically dyes are generally used for spotting prints.

It's probably also easier to incrementally add density by using a (transparent) dye as opposed to a pigment, although it depends a bit on the pigment. On carbon transfer prints (which are pigment prints to begin with), I do use a suitable watercolor paint for retouching - but on silver gelatin, I would opt for dyes.

Don_ih · Nov 15, 2023

I use Marshal ink with a pen nib. I'd make smears with any kind of brush. With a pen nib, you can get an extremely small dot. I have to wear cheap strong reading glasses while doing it.

Ian Leake · Nov 15, 2023

I use Schminke Diaphoto dyes. They are made in Germany so should be no problem finding in Europe. I like them a lot.

Helinophoto · Nov 15, 2023

Thank you, it seems like dyes, rather than acrylic paint is the way to go, thank you all for the valuable input there.
@Don_ih Not sure if i can get hold of it, but I will be on the lookout, I see fotoimpex has some very very very fine brushes, so I will try them first (I do have various loupes here, to be able to see well). Getting older now, so I need to wear glasses and cannot see for crap on my mobile anymore , even my Rolleiflex is an issue now, unless I wear reading glasses

@Ian Leake Indeed, I see that fotoimpex has several. I was thinking to order the 710, 730, 740, 780, the reducer and the DaVinci brush, as I am not sure if black is possible to dilute and that i sometimes have warmtone papers as well, would you recommend that many inks, or is basically black and brown black in various dilutions sufficient to cover most situations? (https://www.fotoimpex.com/shop/system/?func=searchdo&cache=1700049387&qsearch=diaphoto)

Ian Leake · Nov 15, 2023

Helinophoto said:
@Ian Leake Indeed, I see that fotoimpex has several. I was thinking to order the 710, 730, 740, 780, the reducer and the DaVinci brush, as I am not sure if black is possible to dilute and that i sometimes have warmtone papers as well, would you recommend that many inks, or is basically black and brown black in various dilutions sufficient to cover most situations? (https://www.fotoimpex.com/shop/system/?func=searchdo&cache=1700049387&qsearch=diaphoto)

I use Jet Black (740), Platinum Black (730) and Sepia Brown (640). I bought, but don't use, Olive Green (550), Neutral Grey (780) and Universal Grey (760). I also have White (110), about which I have mixed feelings. I have occasionally used it to lighten black or sepia (which is useful) but I had hoped it could help with removing black marks but it's no good for that.

I bought the reducer, but failed to get it to work. I guess there's a technique I need to learn

Helinophoto · Nov 15, 2023

Ian Leake said:
I use Jet Black (740), Platinum Black (730) and Sepia Brown (640). I bought, but don't use, Olive Green (550), Neutral Grey (780) and Universal Grey (760). I also have White (110), about which I have mixed feelings. I have occasionally used it to lighten black or sepia (which is useful) but I had hoped it could help with removing black marks but it's no good for that.

I bought the reducer, but failed to get it to work. I guess there's a technique I need to learn

Superb, I made an order now, crossing fingers that everything will arrive well without too much tax (my government looooove to tax everything and everyone)

koraks · Nov 15, 2023

Ian Leake said:
I also have White (110), about which I have mixed feelings. I have occasionally used it to lighten black or sepia (which is useful) but I had hoped it could help with removing black marks but it's no good for that.

Note that the Diaphoto dyes are no longer a Schmincke product, but are manufactured by Rohrer & Klinger: https://www.rohrer-klingner.de/en/diaphoto-glaze/
As dyes are typically transparent, I'd expect the white dye to not do much on a B&W print except maybe reduce density a tiny bit. The black silver image will always shine through.

Ian Leake said:
I bought the reducer, but failed to get it to work.

For undoing earlier work with these retouching dyes?

Ian Leake · Nov 15, 2023

koraks said:
Note that the Diaphoto dyes are no longer a Schmincke product, but are manufactured by Rohrer & Klinger: https://www.rohrer-klingner.de/en/diaphoto-glaze/

Thanks. I didn't realise the manufacturer had changed. Hopefully still the same product, though.

koraks said:
As dyes are typically transparent, I'd expect the white dye to not do much on a B&W print except maybe reduce density a tiny bit. The black silver image will always shine through.

Yes, this is certainly the case. It was wishful thinking on my part

koraks said:
For undoing earlier work with these retouching dyes?

That's supposedly what it is for, but I haven't got it to work. If anyone knows the right technique, then I'd love to find out how to do it.

Doremus Scudder · Nov 15, 2023

Water-soluble dyes, as I assume the Diaphoto dyes are, can be diluted to the required density for spotting grey areas. There is no need for grey dye. If you tone your prints or use warm-tone paper, you may need some brown/umber/red/whatever color to mix with black to match the image tone of your prints. I have three or four colors I use. I use a palette with six or eight wells and distilled water to mix different densities and colors of spotting dye. Check the dye density and color on a print border before actually spotting the area. If in doubt, start too light. Adding more dye is easier than removing it (see below).

If your brush is not fine enough, use a magnifier and a pair of tweezers to remove some hairs from the brush to make it finer. My favorite brush now is a really cheap fox-hair brush with about 1/3 of the original hairs removed. Remove hairs of different lengths to make a nice point.

Removing/lightening spotted areas that are too dark can be done by simply placing a drop of distilled water on the spotted area and letting it sit for a while. Some of the dye will dissolve into the water, which can then be blotted off. The usual problem is darkening an area too much. This technique often removes enough of the dye to solve the problem. Sometimes, if you've darkened and area way too much and this won't do the job completely, rewashing the print for 60 minutes or so will. I've never used a reducer.

Best,

Doremus

Pieter12 · Nov 15, 2023

Iff they are not available locally, Peerless retouching watercolor sheets would be pretty inexpensive to ship: https://peerlesscolorlabs.com/products/peerless-watercolors-dry-spot-set-of-5-spotting-colors-blacks

MattKing · Nov 15, 2023

I still have functioning sets of SpotTone pens, and they are great.

GregY · Nov 15, 2023

MattKing said:
I still have functioning sets of SpotTone pens, and they are great.

likewise.... i bought up a bunch when it was in its last days

Patrick Robert James · Nov 15, 2023

I use mostly the Peerless dye sheets these days but I still have some Spotone that I use as well. I also use a big brush, a Winsor & Newton #2 pure Sable. Ain't cheap but you only ever have to buy it once if you take care of it. Might as well get a great one. Those little 00000 brushes are incredibly inefficient.

As was already mentioned the Peerless dye sheets can be sent in an envelope. I think I even have an extra set if you want them.

Helinophoto · Nov 16, 2023

@Patrick Robert James Thanks for the offer!
I actually also (eventually) stumbled upon these kinds of sheets online, albeit after I made the order on Fotoimpex.
I was not aware of their existence, but from what I have gathered for the past few days, it seems like one of these sheets will last you a long time, the bottles with wet dye will probably last a lifetime, as I see (via Youtube) that the typical procedure is to hang on to the test-sheet where I can mix and match the tones, and later use it the similar way as the dye-sheets

Rob Skeoch · Nov 16, 2023

If you go to an art store and buy a tube of 'gamma black', put a bit on an old plate and let it dry out. When you go to spot, just wet the brush tip and capture some of the dried paint. I learned this in photo college 40 years ago and still works fine.

koraks · Nov 16, 2023

Rob Skeoch said:
If you go to an art store and buy a tube of 'gamma black'

I've bought and looked at many flavors of black, but have not yet come across any "gamma" black. Mars black, ivory black, lamp black, bone black, mummy black, vineyard black - yes, all of those. Never any 'gamma' black, though. What is it? Also, what kind of tube? Watercolor, gouache, acrylic, oil...?

Rob Skeoch · Nov 17, 2023

koraks said:
I've bought and looked at many flavors of black, but have not yet come across any "gamma" black. Mars black, ivory black, lamp black, bone black, mummy black, vineyard black - yes, all of those. Never any 'gamma' black, though. What is it? Also, what kind of tube? Watercolor, gouache, acrylic, oil...?

I think it was an oil. Always came in a really small tube

koraks · Nov 17, 2023

Hm, doesn't it make the retouched spot look kinda funny when viewed at an angle?

DREW WILEY · Nov 17, 2023

It's really difficult to get acrylic paints to blend in, and not be conspicuous, or other art store options. If you can find any original Spot Tone retouching dyes anywhere, or their Marshall equivalents, they are well worth being shipped. A single bottle might last a decade; but you need more than Basic Black in most cases - a little Selenium Brown should be on hand too. There are also drying photo retouching dyes from Peerless. I'm not familiar with the Euro options being mentioned. Use good quality art store sable spotting brushes, not the cheap photo store kind.

brian steinberger · Dec 3, 2023

MattKing said:
I still have functioning sets of SpotTone pens, and they are great.

+1

GregY · Dec 3, 2023

brian steinberger said:
+1

+2 !

Don_ih · Dec 4, 2023

brian steinberger said:
+1

-1
The tips are nowhere near fine enough.

Mal Paso · Dec 16, 2023

You can still find Spotone on ebay, there is a full set for $20+ shipping right now. It is water soluble and can be revived if dried out.

Spotting fiber-based papers in 2023?

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