Spots on the negative - will they go away?

zehner21 · Sep 27, 2019

Hello all,
I brought two rolls of color negative to a lab for developing. At home, I noticed a regular pattern of dots on several frames and these dots do not go away with some finger & water or with PEC-12.
See attached pictures.
What can I do? These dots do not go away even using a scanner with the highest FARE setting... I'm starting to suspect that the film is permanently damaged.
Thanks
https://imgur.com/jb3iF4y
https://imgur.com/aD4kN8o
https://imgur.com/D8V8d6z

Rudeofus · Sep 27, 2019

Is this some stuff sticking out of the emulsion, or is it completely within ? Also, what does your photo lab have to say about this ?

MattKing · Sep 27, 2019

Do they match a pattern on the camera's pressure plate?

Nokton48 · Sep 27, 2019

Looks like camera pressure plate holes to me

Helios 1984 · Sep 27, 2019

Whatever did this, it also punched numbers ( 1st pic, bottom right )

mshchem · Sep 28, 2019

Talk to the lab. See if the roller transport in the processor has any pattern on the rollers. If it's a "double exposure/light strike situation" , it would take something pretty weird, some sort of screen. It does look remarkably like the pattern on a camera pressure plate, but since 120 film has paper between the plate and the film, I can't imagine this happened in the camera. No weird x-rays. I looks to me from a roller transport? ?? Only a guess.
What type of camera?

mshchem · Sep 28, 2019

Looks imprints of info in the margins with LED. Is thin a Fuji 645?

foc · Sep 28, 2019

Looks like pressure plate markings but how could it happen through the backing paper?
Processing error. Could be a faulty/dirty roller/squeegy/cross over rack?
What film processor machine does your lab use?

John Salim · Sep 28, 2019

They look suspiciously like 'tyre' marks from the processor's roller transport to me ( some machine's rubber rollers are covered with nipples just like the pattern described ).
Ask the lab if they use a minilab for C-41.

John S

zehner21 · Sep 28, 2019

An update for everyone who has taken the time to answer:

I use a Fuji GA645 and this can't be something related to the pressure plate because the pressure plate is smooth and there are tiny holes carved in. The spots on the film are much bigger. I don't think it's something related to the advance mechanism (LED based) because this is the first time that I have this problem. I have already shot several rolls with this camera, from slides to color negative, and this has been the only occasion where I have used a different kind of CN (Portra 800) and a different lab.

The Fuji GA645 has the option to write some data about the exposure but this can't be the culprit, since these spots are all over the frame but not in every frame.

Now the part I was avoiding: I might talk with the lab, but I'm afraid I won't. This is because I have left these two rolls to an acquaintance (lab's owner) and I don't know how to handle this situation...

John Salim · Sep 28, 2019

I'd be inclined to re-wash and stab the negs.

John S

Kino · Sep 28, 2019

zehner21 said:
Now the part I was avoiding: I might talk with the lab, but I'm afraid I won't. This is because I have left these two rolls to an acquaintance (lab's owner) and I don't know how to handle this situation...

If approached diplomatically, it could be helpful to the lab owner to identify a problem that could cause them much grief in the future with other clients. It does appear to be a transport roller with a "soft touch" tire/tyre that is the culprit and it should be investigated before others have the same problem.

mshchem · Sep 28, 2019

The machine could have been cleaned recently. Who knows. But something has laid down a pattern, most likely chemical on the film emulsion. It appears something has, looks accelerated, the developer. A strongly alkaline solution accelerates black and white developer, maybe it's something like this? Ask PE on this forum to look at this.

Minilab owners struggle to get enough film to keep the processor running correctly.

No way to fix existing negatives.

foc · Sep 28, 2019

John Salim said:
I'd be inclined to re-wash and stab the negs.

John S

Rewash the negs in lukewarm warm water with a wetting agent. (The tip of your small finger in washingup liquid if you are stuck). Leave them to soak for a few minutes No need to use stabibizer. You may need to very gently rub the negs between your fingers while immersed in the water. Just be careful as wet negs can be damaged easily. Then hang to dry using a clothes peg attached to a non image part of the neg. Hopefully it will work.

Kino said:
If approached diplomatically, it could be helpful to the lab owner to identify a problem that could cause them much grief in the future with other clients. It does appear to be a transport roller with a "soft touch" tire/tyre that is the culprit and it should be investigated before others have the same problem.

I couldn't agree more. I am a minilab owner and I would like a customer or friend to tell me they were not happy with my work and why. It may have been an oversight on the labs part. Mistakes do happen.
If needs be show them this thread and ask their professional opinion.
Or to put it another way. If a diplomatic approach doesn't work then the lab isn't very professional acting (regardless of equipment used).
Let us know how you get on.

foc · Sep 28, 2019

mshchem said:
Minilab owners struggle to get enough film to keep the processor running correctly.

Not all minilabs struggle. Once a lab can turn over their dev tank volumn in 3 weeks then they will be ok (every minilab should know this fact)
Like all photolab work, good housekeeping goes a long way.

mshchem · Sep 28, 2019

foc said:
Not all minilabs struggle. Once a lab can turn over their dev tank volumn in 3 weeks then they will be ok (every minilab should know this fact)
Like all photolab work, good housekeeping goes a long way.

Best labs run 8 to 10 hours a day. It's not just chemical longevity, there needs to be enough revenue to maintain and upgrade the equipment. The last I checked Fuji Frontier was down to offering one choice for a new machine. I think Noritsu may be manufacturing these machines. The big commercial labs use Refrema dip and dunk equipment.
And yes, I totally agree most of these issues are maintenance and operator related.

cmacd123 · Sep 28, 2019

zehner21 said:
Now the part I was avoiding: I might talk with the lab, but I'm afraid I won't. This is because I have left these two rolls to an acquaintance (lab's owner) and I don't know how to handle this situation...

A possible way to approach your friend might be to show the marks and ask THEM if they can tell you what YOU did wrong.

mshchem · Sep 28, 2019

Ask them to make a couple prints, then ask "what's the cause of the dots?"

foc · Sep 30, 2019

If the lab used a Noritsu film processor then this squeegie/roller could be the culprit. AFAIK it is similar to the squeegie/roller used in the Frontier & Noritsu printers.

Wallendo · Sep 30, 2019

It is far better for a friend/acquaintance to inform a lab owner of a potential problem than to find out from an irate stranger who may trash the lab on social media and really hurt business.

On the other hand, how can the lab not see the issues? Did they just develop the film without making prints of any sort?

Spots on the negative - will they go away?

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