Spots in negative, I can't find the cause.

[Rumbo181]

Hello

Anybody knows what is the likely causo of this spots in the negative?.

What I've learned so far:

It doesn't happen always. Most of my negatives are ok. but sometimes this problem come up.

Is not light leakage, because pattern is inconsistent and happens with negatives exposed with different cameras without light leakage - I've developed film for all of them and no problem.

Always located in the same side of the negative, but in different shape.

Sometimes they have the shape of a sprocket hole.

I only use Kentmere 100 and 400. Spots happen with both of them.

I use two kind of tanks: lab-box with continuous agitating -hence reel axe is horizontal- and an old tank Patterson style -reel axe is vertical.

Developer is Infosol 3, Ilford recommended times, 1+9 dilution.

Questions:

What do you think could be the cause?

Could it be something related with bromide drag?

Something related with temperature? I develop at 20C, but maybe the temp of the tank itself alter the temperature.

Many thanks in advance.

Best.

Ángel Luis

 

[grain elevator]

That looks very much like a light leak, I can't imagine anything else causing this. Bromide drag or temperature issues won't cause so much density in limited areas. Inconsistent patterns are fairly normal for light leaks. Maybe your cameras used to be ok but aren't anymore? Or you've usually used them in less direct sun or with a half case? Or you've mixed the films up and they actually are from one camera? I'f just re-seal all suspicious cameras, it's usually not a lot of work.

 

[KitosLAB]

However, it is very similar to backlighting. What cameras do you shoot with? What is their age? Do they have a self-timer lever?

 

[warden]

Looks like you have a light leak to me.

 

[btaylor]

Light leaks, yes. Are your cassettes factory loaded or do you bulk load? There is a leak somewhere in your regimen.

 

[OAPOli]

That's likely a light leak from the top of the door near the take-up spool. Sprocket hole imprint would be a giveaway. Is the locking side of the door near the take-up spool? Leaks can happen there.

But if it happens with different cameras I'm not sure.

 

[Kino]

Looks like three problems:

1. Light leaks
2. Film touching itself
3. Perforation areas are roughed-up with scratches and even a chip in one perforation.

I would certainly check your camera back light seal for this roll.

Looks like something in your routine is very rough on the transport of the film.

 

[Rumbo181]

Dear all,

Many thanks for your answers.

Jus in case it can helps, I am adding the whole development process I use.

Currently

1) Room temperature: it is impossible to regulate it, and now, in the middle of a heat wave in Spain it could be around 28ºC.

2) Presoaking with tap water and two drops of Kodak Photoflow for 5 minutes. I had problems of accuracy and linked them to a short time for development, I found that a long presoaking was beneficial for even develpment in short times. Tap water aprox 25ºC.

3) Developer Infosol 3 for 5 minutes for Kentmere 100, -another films vary accordingly- target temperature is 20ªC, but the example I posted was 22ºC and developing time was reduced to 4'30''. Tank is an old one, with the reel vertical, similar to a Paterson, but it can not be rotated because the liquid leaks, however it has a vertical axe that can be rotated to provide agitation.
I rotate this axe for 60 '' and later 5'' after each 60'. Lost bath, so every developer soup is used only once.

4) Stop with Ilfostop by 2 minutes. Ambient temperature. Some agitation rotating the axe first 30 seconds.
I recover stop bath to be used in more occasions. Water is distilled one.

5) Fix for five minutes with Ilford Rapid Fixer, Ambient temperature. Agitation rotating the axe first minute and 5'' after each minute. It's the same agitation as developing. Water for mixture is distilled one. I recover it from more uses but keeps under 10 rolls by half a liter.

6) Wash with tap water running for 5 minutes.

7) Bath with Ilford Washaid for 2 minutes. I use distilled water and keep the solution at the same time that fixer: when I need a new batch of fixer solution I change at the same time Washaid solution. Ambient temperature.

8) Second wash with tap water for another 5 minutes.

9) Final bath with distilled water, tree drops of Photoflow and a tap of Isopropilic Alcohol -to speed drying. Two minutes, ambient temperature.

10) Hang the negative as usual with a weight in the bottom to let it dry naturally.


Formerly.

As I have been changing -hopefully evolving- my processing methods, the spots also happened with a former processing process. These are the differences:

1) Room temperature: as it was in spring, not to hoot. You can asume 20-24º. Tap water is about 18ºC

2) No presoaking

3) Same developer, but using a Lab Box. At this time I was not using continuous agitation but normal one using the rev crank. Revs for first minute and 5 seconds every minute. Temperature 20ºC -at least this was the target.

4 and 5) The same, but using the rev crank for agitation.

6 to 10) The same.

In both cases:

I didn't tap the tank into the board to avoid bubbles. I took for granted that reel rotation gets rid of them.


Light leakages.

I know that they seems to be the main suspect, but I'm reluctant to think they are. Spots have happened with an Olympus OM10, a Yeshica Electro 35, -both with new seals-, and with a Fed-3. There are negatives developed with Olympus and Yashica spotless.

In addition, spots are always in the same place, where the pre-printed numbers of negative are. That correspond to the bottom of the tank - but for Lab Box, that could be the bottom as well in the part more distant to the crank link.

@Kino

Thanks for your image, it's very clear. 1. Light leaks could be, but I'm more in something like bromide drag and agitation problem. 2. Fully agree: camera is a FED 3 that I'm using as a pin hole. The less to say is that this camera doesn't treat negatives softly. 3. Agree again, most likely the border of the slot in the plastic reels.

So, for me, 2 and 3 are trivial, the real problem is 1.


@btaylor

I don't load my film, I use commercial cassettes.

Many thanks to every body for your help.

Best

Ángel Luis

 

[titrisol]

I agree with kino there is a leak on the light seals at the bottom of the camera or when you are loading the film in the spiral (if you see this in many films/cameras)

 

[GregY]

I agree with kino there is a leak on the light seals at the bottom of the camera or when you are loading the film in the spiral (if you see this in many films/cameras)

The leak would be in the top of the camera since the images would be upside down.... in the rangefinder or back door....

 

[Sirius Glass]

Looks like three problems:

1. Light leaks
2. Film touching itself
3. Perforation areas are roughed-up with scratches and even a chip in one perforation.

I would certainly check your camera back light seal for this roll.

Looks like something in your routine is very rough on the transport of the film.

View attachment 346674

I agree with all these remarks.

 

[Elmarc]

I agree with all these remarks.

Me too. It is certainly not related to what I am experiencing.

 

[koraks]

I agree with all these remarks.

Absolutely. Bingo on all accounts, @Kino.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Absolutely. Bingo on all accounts, @Kino.

It is nice to be right.

 

[Kino]

Doesn't happen often...

 

[MattKing]

Doesn't happen often...

I think you are frequently right Kino.

 

[foc]

Developer Infosol 3 for 5 minutes for Kentmere 100,

Just a side note. Have you tried Ilfosol at 1+14 dilution?
It gives longer times and has no noticeable effect on quality.

I have used it at the 1+14 dilution for years and loved it.

 

[Scott J.]

I'll jump on the bandwagon: Kino seems to have nailed it.

You mention using a Lab-Box to develop at least some of your rolls. I've never used a Lab-Box, but I'm suspicious that their fairly clever method of daylight loading, where the film is un-spooled from the canister in one (ostensibly) light-tight box and transported onto a reel in another light-tight box via a crank, seems like it could go wrong a few different ways if something wasn't lined up just right. I'm even wondering if all three issues Kino observed (light leaks, spots from film contact, and longitudinal scratching) might not be the result of the same problem. Perhaps something in the film transport mechanism of the Lab-Box is misaligned?

 

[Rumbo181]

Just a side note. Have you tried Ilfosol at 1+14 dilution?
It gives longer times and has no noticeable effect on quality.

I have used it at the 1+14 dilution for years and loved it.

Yes, I did.

When I started to use Lab box I developed for 4'30'', as instructions for Infosol 3 stated that the time of development should be shortened by a 15% when using continuous agitation. being 5 minutes the base time recommended for Kentmere 100.

Then I had a problem of lack of sharpness. Short time was the first suspect. So I checked 1+14 dilution, and the problem with sharpness was mitigated. Then I tested pre soaking for 5 minutes -it has to be long- and 1+9 concentration, time 5 minutes, without reduction. At the same time I did a test for non continuous agitation with presoaking -in a non Lab box tank- and 1+9 concentration. This last was the one with best results.

 

[Rumbo181]

I'll jump on the bandwagon: Kino seems to have nailed it.

You mention using a Lab-Box to develop at least some of your rolls. I've never used a Lab-Box, but I'm suspicious that their fairly clever method of daylight loading, where the film is un-spooled from the canister in one (ostensibly) light-tight box and transported onto a reel in another light-tight box via a crank, seems like it could go wrong a few different ways if something wasn't lined up just right. I'm even wondering if all three issues Kino observed (light leaks, spots from film contact, and longitudinal scratching) might not be the result of the same problem. Perhaps something in the film transport mechanism of the Lab-Box is misaligned?

Thank you for your help gentlemen, I really appreciate the time you have devoted to it.

Problems 2 and 3 in Kino list are no worries. I knew that this camera treats badly negatives -FED 3 has a reputation of damaging sprockets holes in negative- and that when the negative touches the lips of the reel slots is normal find this kind of spots.

Real issue is problem 1, light leakage or not?. Is no wonder that everybody thinks that there is light leakage. Myself, at the beginning I was thinking exactly the same.

Then I looked through my negatives, and found spots from three different cameras. Two of them had their light seals changed, and the location of the spot in the negative was always the same, regardless the camera, so I found this not really consistent with light leakages and started to doubt about it. As the shapes of the spots itself match much more to a sort of chemical dragging I thought this was a good line of investigation. Actually, the agitation has been always done rotating the reel with a crank, never inverting the tank, hence I think that there could be different layers of bath with different development by-products concentration. In addition, to agitation style, difference of temperature between presoaking and development could have its influence as well.

So, I'm not completely persuaded that there is any light leakage, of course could it be, but could it be not.

But enough of beating the bush. Next simple step is develop some rolls from this camera in a Paterson tank, with proper inversion, ensuring that presoaking and developing temperature are the same at 20ªC and watch the result. And of course, recheck the cameras looking for a source of spurious light.

Again, thank you all for your help.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Just a side note. Have you tried Ilfosol at 1+14 dilution?
It gives longer times and has no noticeable effect on quality.

I have used it at the 1+14 dilution for years and loved it.

Sorry for my side note to your side note -- but can you comment on any specific differences between Ilfosol at 1+9 vs. 1+14, either theoretical or observed? Or point me to a discussion / test comparing the two dilutions? I am particularly interested to learn if the film grain is more or less prominent in the higher dilution?

tl:dr
Earlier this week I processed 3 rolls of 35mm film using Ilfosol 3 for the first time. (I normally use Xtol/LegacyPro.) I purchased my Ilfosol in the Simplicity packaging - which is a box of five packets, each holding 60mL. Because each of my 3 films required a different processing time, I diluted a packet of Ilfosol to 1+14 so I would have enough volume to fill my 8 oz tank three times (at 1+9 a packet makes 600mL; at 1+14 a packet makes 900mL).

My Fuji Acros 100ii and Ilford Delta 400 films both looked OK, but I was unpleasantly surprised by the T-Max 400 which showed a lot more pronounced grain than expected. In Xtol, T-Max is usually less grainy than Delta 400 for me, but based on my single experience with Ilfosol 3, that seems to be reversed.

The technical information that comes with the Simplicity packaging does not even mention the 1+14 dilution, but the data sheet for the 500mL bottle says,
"ILFOSOL 3 is supplied as a liquid concentrate normally diluted 1+9 for one-shot use. Dilute it immediately before use and discard directly after development. For greater economy it can be used with many films at a higher dilution of 1+14 with only a small trade off in image quality."

I have been trying to find out more about what this "small trade off in image quality" might actually look like.

 

[runswithsizzers]

2) Presoaking with tap water and two drops of Kodak Photoflow for 5 minutes.

What is the reason for adding Photoflow to the presoak? Is this a good idea? I have not heard of anyone doing this.

 

[foc]

Sorry for my side note to your side note -- but can you comment on any specific differences between Ilfosol at 1+9 vs. 1+14, either theoretical or observed? Or point me to a discussion / test comparing the two dilutions? I am particularly interested to learn if the film grain is more or less prominent in the higher dilution?

I used Ilfosol, professionally, for many years at 1+14 and was always happy and more importantly, my customers were happy.

I don't have any test results between 1+9 and 1+14. I know Ilford mention a small trade off in quality, but I haven't see it with my own eyes. To me, they just looked the same.

My reason for using 1+14 at 20C was not economy but the longer developing times. Personally, I prefer times longer than 5 minutes,

Sorry, I can't offer a better scientific answer.

Have a scroll through the images in this link and you will see what people do with Ilfosol 3.
Hope it helps.

https://filmdev.org/developer/show/1043

Here are two of my own:

https://filmdev.org/recipe/show/11966

https://filmdev.org/recipe/show/10277

 

[Doremus Scudder]

OP,

Just to clarify: Areas outside the image are do not get exposed unless there is a light leak somewhere in the process. The fact that your film rebate is obviously exposed points to a light leak.

The other artifacts that Kino pointed out are issues as well.

Doremus

 

[KitosLAB]

There are actually two topics in this thread. One is about stains, the other is about chemistry. They are not connected in any way. The spots around the edge have nothing to do with chemistry.