Spotone/ Spot-All inks toxic?

[Trond]

Hi everyone,

A friend suggested that retouching inks might be toxic. I've always had the impression that Spotone/Spot-All inks are-non toxic, and have routinely been licking the brush to dilute the ink (for many years). I managed to find a MSDS for Spot-All sepia tone, and it doesn't list any toxic ingredients.

Do any of know if these inks are toxic or not? I should possibly change my habits anyway..

Thanks,
Trond

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

Black and White retouch inks are probably not toxic, but color ones may be. Many color pigments and dyes are quite toxic.

Even if the inks are not dangerous, you should never wet a paintbrush by licking it. Its a bad habit to get into that can hurt you if you ever use materials that are toxic, and saliva is not something you want on your prints, it will probably cause them to discolor or degrade over time. The inks should be diluted with distilled water only.

 

[AgX]

What makes you believe "black & white" ones are not toxic in contrary?
That would imply they contain carbon.
We did not consider the binder either.

 

[Trond]

...it will probably cause them to discolor or degrade over time. The inks should be diluted with distilled water only.

That got me a bit more worried than the possible toxicity, so I just talked with a photograph conservator (at the National Museum of Photography here in Norway) about it. He says that he has never seen damage that might have been caused by it, but that the gelatin might potentially be a bit affected by it over time. Under normal storage conditions, it shouldn't cause problems, he also says.

Is there a specific reason why you use distilled water? Prints are normally washed in tap water, so what harm can it do when mixed with retouching inks?

Thanks,
Trond

 

[jeffreyg]

I've never seen any reference of toxicity of Spotone dyes but think of the bacteria, yeasts and virus that reside in your mouth that you are introducing to your prints. Perhaps they don't survive well on the print. I would still rather use distilled or tap water to wet the brush.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[guangong]

As a painter as well as a photographer I should point out that putting a paint brush in one's mouth is not healthy. Smoking should also be avoided. Also, hands should be kept away from face and mouth when handling dark room chemicals. Incidentally, one of the most deadly cancers is tongue cancer with very, very few survivors.

 

[Trond]

Yes, I will absolutely start using water to dilute the inks!

As a side note, saliva is often used to by conservators to clean paintings, so it can't be that bad...

 

[chris77]

sorry guys but what you are inventing here is really ridiculous. hearsay and fairytales.

i have been working as a restaurator of painitings for a decade. saliva is used in many procedures and is excellent. ask any restaurator. its benefits and chemical balance (ph etc) is so good that you can buy artificial saliva in bottles. it is a slight solvent, surface cleaning of paintings is still done this way.
yes, i have been spitting on the work of masters!

and for toxicity: doing waterbased retouche, often the first step in retouche (my main competence in restauration) saliva is all that is used. certain very toxic pigments and preparations are no longer on the market. certain are still unhealthy when eaten. i am talking about aqauarel colors.

use distilled water if you prefer. i will keep licking brushes.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

First I would like to clarify things a bit. A dye is a water soluble coloring material and a pigment is usually insoluble in water and must be dispersed in some vehicle such as linseed oil. The last time I bought Spotone they were water soluble dyes. An example of a pigment would be India ink which uses finely ground carbon. Pigments are often quite poisonous for example cadmium yellow. When dyeing cloth the water soluble dye must be fixed into the cloth fibers so it does not come out during washing. The chemical(s) used to do this are called mordants. The RIT dyes usually recommend that the first time the fabric is dyed that a cup or two of ordinary salt be added to the wash water. The salt acts as a mordant and help to fix the dye. A dye stuff like indigo oxidizes to an insoluble form after the fabric is dyed. Therefore it is important that the fabric not be washed for period of time.

As mentioned retouchers typically moisten the brush with saliva in order to get a fine tip. Usually the reason given is that spit works better than water. In fact retouching manuals often make this point. The amount of dye ingested is miniscule. In addition if the dyes were dangerous there would be some warning on the bottle. This is a good assumption in today's litigious society. So while I usually warn against contact with various chemicals, in this case I believe that there is no real need for concern. As before always read the MSDS if one exists. The FDA characterizes dyes into three groups.

1. Food colorings that are safe when ingested.
2. Dyes that are nor safe for ingestion but safe for skin contact.
3. Dyes that not considered safe for ingestion or skin contact.

 

[Hilo]

I retouch prints for 35 years, always licked the brushes. And I know many older photographers who have done the same. I do not think you have anything to worry about.

What worries me more is that the Spotone I have seems to deteriorate. Or that something changed with the Ilford warmtone fiber emulsion. I don't get the 100% results anymore retouching the very deep blacks. I changed to Schmincke that is still made and it works much better for me. Bummer, because I have heaps of Spotone bottles . . .

 

[darkroommike]

I do not lick brushes to dilute the dyes but will use a bit of saliva applied to a finger to repoint a brush after I rinse it and put it away.

 

[jvo]

sorry guys but what you are inventing here is really ridiculous. hearsay and fairytales.

i have been working as a restaurator of painitings for a decade. saliva is used in many procedures and is excellent. ask any restaurator. its benefits and chemical balance (ph etc) is so good that you can buy artificial saliva in bottles. it is a slight solvent, surface cleaning of paintings is still done this way.
yes, i have been spitting on the work of masters!

and for toxicity: doing waterbased retouche, often the first step in retouche (my main competence in restauration) saliva is all that is used. certain very toxic pigments and preparations are no longer on the market. certain are still unhealthy when eaten. i am talking about aqauarel colors.

use distilled water if you prefer. i will keep licking brushes.

*,
respectfully, i'd feel better about your input if you had a name, (even made up), and a location. remaining anonymous is up to you - attaching credibility often takes place with the slightest of clues.

jvo

 

[nsurit]

Did the person who told you the long discontinued Spotone products were toxic, offer to properly dispose of them for you if you sent them to him? Just wondering. My three lifetime supply of spotone remains under lock and key. Bill Barber

 

[AgX]

I changed to Schmincke that is still made and it works much better for me.

Schmincke no longer offer retouching inks.
(You now will get them from Rohrer & Klinger.)

 

[chris77]

*,
respectfully, i'd feel better about your input if you had a name, (even made up), and a location. remaining anonymous is up to you - attaching credibility often takes place with the slightest of clues.

jvo

hello jvo.
well, my name is chris..
i just tried to change my username, just to see if i could. guess its not possible.
greetings from paris, france

 

[piu58]

> I retouch prints for 35 years, always licked the brushes. A

Only 20 years for me (Spotone). I am still alive.

 

[darkroommike]

Spotone is fine but Spotoff contained the nasties, probably a good idea to never develop the habit of brush licking in the first place.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Can you smoke spotone too??
Just insert laughter here!

 

[MattKing]

well, my name is chris..
i just tried to change my username, just to see if i could. guess its not possible.
greetings from paris, france

Bonjour chris.
If you send a message ("Start a Conversation") to Sean (the site's owner) he has the ability to change your username for you.
Your existing username is kind of awkward, and probably hard to see on small screens.
You could decide to add your location to your profile. It often helps with forum discussions to have a sense (literally) where people are coming from. And it is invaluable if you are discussing issues of availability.

 

[silveror0]

Yes, I will absolutely start using water to dilute the inks!

As a side note, saliva is often used to by conservators to clean paintings, so it can't be that bad...

That's not the same as a "spit shine", used by the military to get a mirror-like shoe shine.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi everyone,

A friend suggested that retouching inks might be toxic. I've always had the impression that Spotone/Spot-All inks are-non toxic, and have routinely been licking the brush to dilute the ink (for many years). I managed to find a MSDS for Spot-All sepia tone, and it doesn't list any toxic ingredients.

Do any of know if these inks are toxic or not? I should possibly change my habits anyway..

Thanks,
Trond

healthier than licking a frozen lamp post in Minnesota in February.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Bonjour chris.
You could decide to add your location to your profile. It often helps with forum discussions to have a sense (literally) where people are coming from. And it is invaluable if you are discussing issues of availability.

Yes It is a bit awkward to find out that you have offered advice for the US only to find that the poster lives in Europe or elsewhere. I personally think it should be compulsory to at least give a country when joining.

 

[Sirius Glass]

They may be toxic; they may not be toxic. It does not matter to me because I treat all darkroom chemicals and household cleaners as though they are toxic. That means proper handling and washing ones hands. It also means that I do not drink them.

 

[jvo]

hello jvo.
well, my name is chris..
i just tried to change my username, just to see if i could. guess its not possible.
greetings from paris, france

hello chris... ah, and in wonderful france! thanks for the update.

 

[Trond]

Hi again,

While I certainly agree that one should be careful around the chemicals used in the darkroom, I will probably continue my established habits when it comes to spotting since the risk seems quite small (when using products such as Spotone and Spot-All).

Thanks for the input everyone!

Trond