spent fixer ... the poll

Ulrich Drolshagen · Jul 30, 2009

i've never heard of that method, it is great to learn about it.
is sodium dithionite one those things that is readily available?
how much do you have to put in ?

Yes it is. It seems not to be especially hazardous. It is used in laundry bleaches mainly. I suppose every chemical supplier will have it.

Ulrich

jmcd · Jul 30, 2009

I take my spent fixer to a household hazardous waste facility.

removed account4 · Jul 30, 2009

cknapp1961 said:
Isn't that why I pay a sewage bill? To get rid of refuse liquids and waste out of my home?...yes I drive an SUV, I heat my home to 72F in winger and cool my home to about 70F in the summer, I can afford it.

30 years ago they said an ice age was coming. I don't believe we are powerful enough to effect global climate, there are solar winds, solar flares, the fluctuation of magma under the earths crust driving plate tectonic movement and the Earths magnetism (which effects the ability of our atmosphere to deflect solar wind), frozen methane in the oceans just waiting to be released into the atmosphere, volcanic activity, etc., all of which must have a greater impact than us "mere mortals". If people really believed we were causing climate change in America they would be clamoring for nuclear power and a new automobile that runs on a totally renewable energy source instead of 120 year old combustion engine technology. But we have not built a nuclear power plant in 30 years because we lack the guts to do it. If he automobile industry innovated at the rate of the PC industry I could fly my car to the moon on a thimble full of salt by now. Also, look up the term "abiotic petroleum", hydrocarbons may not be as rare as we are led to believe.

hi cknapp1961 ...

it really has nothing to do with renewable energies,
or global warming
or nuclear power
or the next ice age ...

i am just wondering, what people do with their spent fixer ...

so far i have learned:

that aluminium foil can be used instead of more expensive metals,

that sodium dithionite works too,

that a trickle tank or other ion transfer ( non electrolytic ) can
reduce silver content to almost undetectable levels

that a porter's silver magnet doesn't cost much and works very well ...

and 2/3 of apuggers who responded use the drain / septic / sewer system ...
for whatever reasons they have ..

oh well ... hopefully folks will
learn how easy and inexpensive it is to get the silver out
(and maybe make a few bucks doing it! ... i just learned that
the silver magnet can remove upto 1-2 troy oz ( 31.10-62.20 grams ) per WEEK ...)

cknapp1961 · Jul 30, 2009

Jnanian,

Your poll is environmentally based. It is like asking if I am a polluter. You would not ask me how I dispose of my feces.

removed account4 · Jul 30, 2009

cknapp1961 said:
Jnanian,

Your poll is environmentally based. It is like asking if I am a polluter. You would not ask me how I dispose of my feces.

it goes back into the environment ...
i suppose the poll has to be environmentally based ...

im not calling people names or being judgmental,
people do what they do for whatever reasons they have

as i said before, i am curious to know what people do
with their spent fixer ...

removed account4 · Jul 30, 2009

Ulrich Drolshagen said:
Yes it is. It seems not to be especially hazardous. It is used in laundry bleaches mainly. I suppose every chemical supplier will have it.

Ulrich

thanks!

i just goooogled it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dithionite

it is a water soluble salt it seems,
like "hypo check" it forces the silver to come
out of solution ...

Ulrich Drolshagen · Jul 30, 2009

cknapp1961 said:
Isn't that why I pay a sewage bill?

No. You pay that for the dispose of ordinary household waste water not for the disposal of heavy metals.
Your waste water is cleaned mainly by bacteria. Silver is a strong biocide and will kill large amounts of these bacteria even in very small quantities. Insofar it seriously interferes with the biological treatment of the waste water in your municipal sewage plant.

Ulrich

cknapp1961 · Jul 30, 2009

If the municipality cannot remove heavy metal from water coming to them and protect me from others who may be doing the same, how do we expect them to manage our health care? It all ties together.

I frequently post on Political sites, I forget that this audience, comprised of artists, is probably more liberal than I.

paladin1420 · Jul 30, 2009

None of the above.

I used to pour it down the drain until I picked up of the fact that there's silver in there that shouldn't go into the waste stream.

I've accumulated about 3 gallons to date and I'm not sure what to do yet.

Kimberly Anderson · Jul 30, 2009

I hike deep in to the nearest Wilderness Study Area and pour it into streams.

Just kidding. We send it out to be reclaimed. But I'm seriously reconsidering just pouring it out onto my side-yard driveway.

ozphoto · Jul 30, 2009

My mechanic happily supplies me with a 10L drum and when it's full, I drop it off to him to have it disposed of correctly. He takes it along with his oil waste to a local EPA disposal centre.

wogster · Jul 30, 2009

cknapp1961 said:
If the municipality cannot remove heavy metal from water coming to them and protect me from others who may be doing the same, how do we expect them to manage our health care? It all ties together.

I frequently post on Political sites, I forget that this audience, comprised of artists, is probably more liberal than I.

What I often find funny, is that many people, and we have seen it in this thread, is everyone has the idea that well, if everyone else has been allowed to pollute indiscriminately, then I/we should be allowed to as well. Dumping 5g of silver into the works, is fine, if only a few people do it once in a long while. The problem with any pollutant is that it quickly adds up to something hard to handle. If 1,000,000 people dump 5g of silver into the water every month, photography isn't the only source of silver in the environment, then that's over 60 tonnes of silver in a year. That could easily exceed the water treatment plants capability to deal with it.

Few photographers create enough fixer in a year that they can't save it up for processing. Here in Toronto, Ontario there is even a service called the Toxics Taxi, which will pickup Household Hazardous Waste between 10L and 50L in size. Some labs which have a silver recovery system will allow you to dump your fixer into their collector as well.

ozphoto · Jul 30, 2009

Yes, labs usually have a silver recovery unit - when I managed one, all my silver went into the unit.
When I left, I never bothered to go back - it's not that glamorous carrying 10L of the stuff into the local KMart (WalMart) with all the customers wandering around.

If you're on good terms with your lab, they may be happy to let you dump your silver in with theirs.

removed account4 · Jul 30, 2009

cknapp1961 said:
If the municipality cannot remove heavy metal from water coming to them and protect me from others who may be doing the same, how do we expect them to manage our health care? It all ties together.

I frequently post on Political sites, I forget that this audience, comprised of artists, is probably more liberal than I.

what does this have to do with the poll ?

whatever ...

it is just a poll, nothing more than that,
and as i stated in the opening of the thread,
no comments were needed,
no names are attached to poll answers,
in the end it really doesn't matter ...

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2009

jnanian, interesting poll. I spent a number of years working in high volume photo-processing, and have some knowledge about this topic.

It would be interesting, should you ever do another such poll, to estimate how much actual silver is involved in the various disposal means.

I have a couple of general comments. Long ago, I was involved in a test using sodium hydrosulfite to "pre-reduce" bleach-fix in order to speed up electrolytic desilvering. Although workable, we considered it (hydrosulfite) to be a "touchy" and potentially "nasty" chemical, and decided against it. Anyone considering it ought to have a look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet).

Regarding those household waste recovery pickups, does anyone know how they actually handle the waste? Good intentions don't guarantee that the best thing is being done.

Bob Carnie · Jul 31, 2009

I have a silver recovery system in house .

PVia · Jul 31, 2009

I save almost all spent photo chemicals for delivery to a local hazardous waste site. This includes developers, fixer, selenium, dichromates, bleaches...

It's really not a big deal to ensure you're doing the right thing.

wogster · Jul 31, 2009

Mr Bill said:
jnanian, interesting poll. I spent a number of years working in high volume photo-processing, and have some knowledge about this topic.

It would be interesting, should you ever do another such poll, to estimate how much actual silver is involved in the various disposal means.

I have a couple of general comments. Long ago, I was involved in a test using sodium hydrosulfite to "pre-reduce" bleach-fix in order to speed up electrolytic desilvering. Although workable, we considered it (hydrosulfite) to be a "touchy" and potentially "nasty" chemical, and decided against it. Anyone considering it ought to have a look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet).

Regarding those household waste recovery pickups, does anyone know how they actually handle the waste? Good intentions don't guarantee that the best thing is being done.

I would assume that municipal household hazardous waste material handlers do know how to dispose of the materials in a safe and environmentally friendly manner. Private haulers, maybe not, although waste disposal companies are often licenced, and if they get caught dumping stuff in an unsafe manner, governments have no problems pulling that licence.

Of course a darkroom worker who goes through 2L of fixer a year or even 10L a year, isn't really the big problem, it's the mini-lab at Wally World, that goes through 10 boxes of RA4 paper a day, printing out the garbage from digicams and cell phones. Their fixer contains a heck of a lot more silver, what is happening to it?

Ulrich Drolshagen · Jul 31, 2009

Mr Bill said:
Regarding those household waste recovery pickups, does anyone know how they actually handle the waste? Good intentions don't guarantee that the best thing is being done.

In Germany saying goes that all materials collected from households (and thus being not professionally and verifiable declared) are put all together and get burnt in toxic waste incineration plants (don't know whether this is the right term for it). For fixer, as consisting mainly of water, this might not be the cleverest thing to do. For me this is the main reason for taking the hassle of desilvering it before pouring it down the drain.

Ulrich

Sirius Glass · Jul 31, 2009

wogster said:
Of course a darkroom worker who goes through 2L of fixer a year or even 10L a year, isn't really the big problem, it's the mini-lab at Wally World, that goes through 10 boxes of RA4 paper a day, printing out the garbage from digicams and cell phones. Their fixer contains a heck of a lot more silver, what is happening to it?

I am of the former flavor, not the latter therefore down the drain. Although I am thinking of using aluminum foil and taking it to toxic waste.

Steve

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2009

Ulrich, I suspect the same thing (incineration of waste) happens in the US, where I'm from. This is probably good for many compounds which can be thus destroyed. In the event of silver, though, I wonder if it goes up the stack as a vapor (or whatever the proper word is). I've never had occasion to investigate, as no sensible photofinisher would let their silver-bearing waste go to such a place. I don't mean that a hobbyist lacks sensibility, rather that the photofinisher might as well recover some cash for their silver. Anyway, I share your view that it's preferable to avoid going to an incinerator.

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2009

Wogster, sorry to say, I don't share your confidence in the knowledge of the "waste material handlers" related to "safe and environmentally friendly..." disposal. If someone could describe to me the actual process and fate of certain things, it might change my minde, but 'til then...

You might be surprised about the mini-lab you used as an example. In your backyard of Toronto, there's a good liklihood they're using a "washless" system, and that all effluent is hauled to a specialist for treatment. Not an overall hazardous waste facility, but a photoprocessing specialist who will recycle the silver and do what else is required to meet effluent regulations. Overall, in your area, I would expect a hobbyist or two, to actually discard more silver than a small to moderate minilab. I'm not saying that the hobbyist is bad, rather that the commercial labs have evolved to meet some pretty stringent requirements. Next time you're passing such a lab, you might stop by and ask them how they handle the waste.

Ulrich Drolshagen · Jul 31, 2009

AFAIK in Germany nearly 100% of all silver out of c41, e6 and such gets recycled. The only photographic silver that gets lost is that out of processing by hobbyists.

Ulrich

removed account4 · Jul 31, 2009

in a lot of places businesses are regulated *heavily*
and the government has very little tolerance for polluters.

back in 2005 the president of a company that refurbished mini labs allentown pa
was sentenced 6 months house arrest and the company and its president were fined $70,000 for dumping silver and other stuff in to the local sewer system

hobbyists tend to slip under the radar ...

Mr Bill · Jul 31, 2009

I don't doubt that Germany does a very good job at recovering photo silver, but I'll say that it's very difficult to get at that last couple percent. And in fact, it's very difficult to even be exactly sure where you're at. For some reason, silver content of materials is closely held information by the manufacturers. I've seen published information on certain limited films (it's confidential), but it's always referred to as "recoverable silver content."

Here's an example of why the last bit is very difficult. If your process uses normal amounts of wash water, the wet film exiting the fixer tank brings a small amount of silver out with it, then lets that silver spread into a large amount of wash water. One way to chase that silver is to put your wash thorough ion-exchange columns with specialized ion-exchange resins. There will be some slight leakage of silver through the columns. Then, when you strip the columns and attempt to recover that effluent, some silver will slip through. Likely, some silver will end up trapped in the resin beads. So you have trapped it, but you won't have any idea how much is there until the resin end-of-life, when you ship it to your refiner.

If you want to make things a bit easier, you could use the so-called washless sytsems, with very low flow rate systems. They keep the silver in a smaller volume, so more concentrated, where it's easier to get at. The downside? Probably the film is not as thoroughly washed, so more silver remains in the film (and the customer keeps it). A way around this is to have a processor with a large number of counter-flow tanks, etc, but such machines would be more expensive.

Anyway, it's very difficult to get at the last bits of photo silver, and probably not economical. So there is a tendency to only go as far as necessary to meet the effluent requirements.

Sorry if I'm boring you too much; it was always an interesting challenge to me.

spent fixer ... the poll

what do you do with your spent fixer?

pour down drain

use a silver magnet ( sold at porters )

use a trickle tank

"metal wool" / steel wool ( or another metal )

use a evaporation unit

leave out to let nature evaporate

use an ion transfer machine

have a waste hauler take it away

take it to household waste recovery center

i have a lab take care of my film + prints

Ulrich Drolshagen

jmcd

removed account4

cknapp1961

removed account4

removed account4

Ulrich Drolshagen

cknapp1961

paladin1420

Kimberly Anderson

ozphoto

wogster

ozphoto

removed account4

Mr Bill

Bob Carnie

PVia

wogster

Ulrich Drolshagen

Sirius Glass

Mr Bill

Mr Bill

Ulrich Drolshagen

removed account4

Mr Bill

spent fixer ... the poll

what do you do with your spent fixer?

pour down drain

use a silver magnet ( sold at porters )

use a trickle tank

"metal wool" / steel wool ( or another metal )

use a evaporation unit

leave out to let nature evaporate

use an ion transfer machine

have a waste hauler take it away

take it to household waste recovery center

i have a lab take care of my film + prints

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