Speckled/mottled 120 negatives: issue with the film or my process?

[Raphael]

Hi all,

To me, it's the long debated problem of "paper offset", which occurs if a 120 film is stored in rather damp conditions. Then backing paper becomes sticky, and produces marks and spots to film.
So, for me humidity is definitively the culprit.

I got the same problem in more than half a brick (five rolls) of Fomapan 200, stored in my basement. Fresh, first used rolls came out pristine.
All brands are likely to be concerned, see by example threads about Tmax 400 rolls.

Regards,

Raphael

 

[Brook Hill]

I got a similar mottling effect from two rolls of 4 year out of date HP5. I have not had the problem before or since so I assumed it was due to the old films and poor storage condition
Tony

 

[Svenedin]

Hi all,

To me, it's the long debated problem of "paper offset", which occurs if a 120 film is stored in rather damp conditions. Then backing paper becomes sticky, and produces marks and spots to film.
So, for me humidity is definitively the culprit.

I got the same problem in more than half a brick (five rolls) of Fomapan 200, stored in my basement. Fresh, first used rolls came out pristine.
All brands are likely to be concerned, see by example threads about Tmax 400 rolls.

Regards,

Raphael

Was the film stored in the basement AFTER exposure? I've never used Foma film but isn't the film sealed in individual foil packets? How would moisture affect unopened, unexposed film?

 

[Raphael]

Was the film stored in the basement AFTER exposure? I've never used Foma film but isn't the film sealed in individual foil packets? How would moisture affect unopened, unexposed film?

Hello Svenedin,

No, it was unexposed 120 films. To me, individual foil 120 packets aren't moisture proof, they aren't in airtight plastic canister like 35 mm cartridges. Maybe Foma one are especially prone to this, the packets are made of thick paper lined with aluminium foil. I don't think they are air tight, anyway, so I think moisture can affect the film in the long time.

 

[Svenedin]

Hello Raphael. OK, so the foil lined paper is not airtight. Adox used to sell 120 film in plastic canisters and they are also available as empty canisters from https://www.fotoimpex.de/shopen/films/adox-medium-format-film-containercanister-120-format.html Also available as Rollei branded canisters from macodirect.de (but more expensive).

I was going to by some of these a while ago to protect exposed 120 film when hiking in the mountains. In the end I just put the exposed film in a zip-lock bag but it did get damp (there is often torrential rain on my holidays). I took it out and let the film dry out over a few days and there were no ill effects that I could see on the negatives.

 

[donakello]

Hi all,

Thanks again for the feedback. I figured an update might be useful.

I had another roll of FP4 to develop, and I hit the same problem again :-( I shot it on a trip to a different island. I was as careful as I've ever been with the development, and did 6 rolls of 35mm FP4 beforehand, with exactly the same setup. I used fresh fixer and stopbath, mixed the rodinal minutes before use, filtered water through a Brita filter, and was really careful with times and temperatures. There were no speckling issues with the 35mm film. Nor were there issues with the Retro 80S or Delta 100 120 film from the batch with the first problematic roll.

Dead Link Removed
(Inishmore, largest of the Aran islands.)


This leads me to believe that it is caused by bad film, i.e. as Tony and Rapael mentioned, a combination of backing paper and storage conditions affecting the film before exposure. In the case of TMAX, I could pretty much guarantee this by the presence of the frame numbers and 'KODAK' all over the negs. Those negs also had mottling too. I also had the effect, as mentioned, on some rolls of Pan F earlier in the year. In retrospect I can add one lab-developed roll of Portra 160 (at the time I assumed the lab made a blunder)

here's an image of the backing paper- is that the same speckled pattern?
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I still have 4 rolls of FP4 left, but I'm not sure what to do with them. As per Murphy's Law, on frame 6 of that most recent roll of FP4 my Hasselblad properly jammed and I had to send it to the UK where hopefully it can be fixed/serviced. I can't do any tests but may do in future. Oddly it meant that I didn't spend lots more time taking speckledy photos on islands.

I know with the TMAX there is a batch number on the negative (near frame 11) and I could see that my remaining rolls were from the same batch so I put them aside.

The developed negatives of both damaged FP4 rolls have "4296" printed along the edges, while the remaining rolls have "31AFN1C01/01 JUL 2019" or "37EFN1C02/03 JAN 2020" on the boxes. I don't have the boxes for the shot rolls :-( I wonder can I figure out if the 4296 indicates which batch they were from? I think probably the 2019 ones, simply because there are more of them left.

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I have dug up a lot forum posts with similar issues; one idea I have is that the supplier is/was storing film in a fridge, which may be causing moisture buildup.

I wonder is it worth sending the film to Ilford? If/when I get the Hassy back I could buy another roll of FP4 from a different supplier, then shoot them all, and develop them as I have been. It might confirm/refute my hypothesis. I guess that will only be mostly for my own peace of mind.

Hopefully onwards and upwards from here.

 

[MattKing]

I wonder is it worth sending the film to Ilford?

Yes - even if the problem does not turn out to be a manufacturing defect, Ilford/Harman will want to know about it!

 

[Mateo]

Hi there,
I've run into the same problem and I think I narrowed it down to humidity issues. What was the weather like when you loaded the film and when you took the film out of the camera? In the foil I doubt anything can go wrong. I have negatives that look identical and they all have one thing in common; humid weather. Imagine this, you're driving around in an air conditioned car in Florida and jump out to take a picture and load your cold film in the hot muggy outside air.

 

[Svenedin]

Hi there,
I've run into the same problem and I think I narrowed it down to humidity issues. What was the weather like when you loaded the film and when you took the film out of the camera? In the foil I doubt anything can go wrong. I have negatives that look identical and they all have one thing in common; humid weather. Imagine this, you're driving around in an air conditioned car in Florida and jump out to take a picture and load your cold film in the hot muggy outside air.

The OP is in the West of Ireland, humidity is guaranteed. The are only 3 types of weather in Ireland: it is raining, it has just stopped raining, it is going to rain. I have been to the Aran Islands and have taken photographs there. They are wild, windswept islands out in the Atlantic.

 

[donakello]

The OP is in the West of Ireland, humidity is guaranteed. The are only 3 types of weather in Ireland: it is raining, it has just stopped raining, it is going to rain. I have been to the Aran Islands and have taken photographs there. They are wild, windswept islands out in the Atlantic.

Fact! It's rarely dry for long near the Atlantic, and there were few warm days this summer just gone. It's cool though- I think we had about 2 days here this year where the temperature went to 24/25 C or higher. Does this mean that you cannot reliably shoot 120 film in humid/maritime conditions? Seems like a big deal- Ireland is humid but I don't think it's extreme, and my issues were sporadic- for example I also used Rollei on the same Aran trip on the same day and didn't have issues. I load the film directly out of the foil pack and when shot it goes into an inner pouch of my bag, and then to a dark cool drawer until developed. I haven't used desiccant. Can the coastal sea air and maritime climate cause the backing paper to stick/imprint during shooting I wonder? I know the film would have been in the bag for a few hours outdoors before loading/shooting so the temperature should have been ok?

It's a difficult thing to pin down :-( I'd almost like to have seen it happen with two different brands of film bought from different suppliers on the one day, which would be strong evidence for the shooting conditions. It would be interesting to know if others have had the same issues in Ireland but I don't really know any 120 film shooters here. In this case, the 2 rolls of FP4 I developed were affected while the 4 rolls of non-FP4 were fine, and it was the same scenario with the TMAX and Pan F. I guess some films might be more sensitive. I've shot more Delta 100 than anything else and never had the issue with it.