SP-445 4x5 Processing tank - streaking problem

[rmann]

I have run 12 sheets of film through this tank system and have had problems with streaking on the back side of the film where it touches the holder's ridges. My first few sheets had almost every ridge visible. At the suggestion received on another forum, I increased my agitation and included a full aggressive 60 second wash cycle with photo flo as the last step. This did result in a few sheets without the streaks. However, my last batch has had the problem reoccur, the streaks are from the wide ridges near the center of the holder. At a 50% success rate, I am not sure if this is going to work out for me. Is anyone else having this problem?

I am using Bergger Pancro 400 film, that is currently the only 4x5 film stock I have. The arrows are pointing to the marks left by the two ridges, image is a small section of the negative.

 

[Alan9940]

Sorry to read that your streaking issues are back, Bob. I just got my SP-445 this past Friday and have only made one run with it so far, but I didn't have any issues; TMax 100 film developed in F76+. One of my test negs was an evenly lit smooth card exposed to Zone VI because I wanted to see if this tank would provide even development. I can't imagine a more aggressive test (well...it's the one I always use) and the neg was beautiful.

I will say that I do use a slightly different processing regimen than anything I've seen from Tim's videos or read in the initial findings posted on various forums. My agitation cycle is first 20 secs following initial fill of the tank, followed by 3 inversions every 30 secs for the reminder of the development time. Yeah, OK, nothing special there, but when doing the 3 inversions I rotate, if you will, around the clock. Does that make sense? I'll try to describe it... First cycle is top turned away from me; second cycle is to the right using my right hand; third cycle is top turned toward my body; fourth is to the left using my left hand. I also noticed that the agitation cycles toward and away from my body are also orbital in nature. I guess it's the way I hold the tank! I don't do it like Tim has shown in his "Tips" video recently posted.

I do a 2 - 3 min presoak and when the fix step is done I do an abbreviated Ilford wash cycle, then pull the film from the holders and wash as I normally do. Final rinse with distilled water and "PhotoFlo" (I actually use the product from the Photo Formulary), then hang to dry.

I hope something I've reported here helps solve your streaking issues. Have you tried a different film?

 

[tim48v]

Bob,
Make sure your film holders are "flat", we've heard of one other user that had a slightly curved film holder that could cause the film to be pressed against the holder. If so, it's pretty easy to just warm up the film holder in hot water (not boiling!) and straighten it with your fingers.

BTW, we've processed other films with a coating on the back with no problem.

Let us know what you find.

Tim

 

[Mick Fagan]

Bob,
Make sure your film holders are "flat", we've heard of one other user that had a slightly curved film holder that could cause the film to be pressed against the holder. If so, it's pretty easy to just warm up the film holder in hot water (not boiling!) and straighten it with your fingers.

BTW, we've processed other films with a coating on the back with no problem.

Let us know what you find.

Tim

Good to know, one of my film holders has a definite curve, I'll have a go at straightening it. I haven't used the tank yet as I was wondering how I could flatten the curved film holder.

Mick.

 

[mklw1954]

I don't develop sheet film and I'm not familiar with the process you are using but I'm wondering if my experience in doing RA4 color prints in a drum could be relevant here. I got streaks on the prints if, when I emptied the developer, I drained the drum to allow nearly every last drop of developer out. If I go more quickly to adding the bleach/fix (stop in your film case), I get no streaks. I assume that extra few seconds of a thin layer of developer moving across the sheet is what's causing the streaks.

 

[moviemaniac]

Very good info there, Tim, I was wondering exactly that, since all four of my holders are curved. Will try to straighten them before using them the first time...

 

[tim48v]

We're not exactly sure why some film holders are curved a bit and other aren't. We think it's from getting tossed in the production bin while still hot.

They're no harder to load (maybe even a bit easier) and they grip the film better. Maybe too well. Only a problem with film that has a coating on the back. Even then it seems to be hit and miss. We've had about five people email that they experienced it, (one of whom had loaded the film emulsion side down!)

Of the curved ones we've seen here, most can be straightened by just flexing with your fingers (no heat required).

Let us know what you find.

 

[Nige]

one of mine has a slight bend but I used it as is. I might try some gentle persuasion!

 

[vdonovan]

I've run about a dozen sheets through mine with no noticeable problems. I love it!

 

[Doug Gray]

Bob,
Make sure your film holders are "flat", we've heard of one other user that had a slightly curved film holder that could cause the film to be pressed against the holder. If so, it's pretty easy to just warm up the film holder in hot water (not boiling!) and straighten it with your fingers.

BTW, we've processed other films with a coating on the back with no problem.

Let us know what you find.

Tim

I have run 60+ sheets through the SP-445 tank - my first try at home development. I have been very pleased with the results, but started having problems when I switched to Ilford FP4+ from the Fomapan 100 and 400 I had used previously. I started getting blotchy areas of over-development, and have determined that the problem spots always line up with the film holders' crossbars, specifically the ones with the small circles left from the molding process. One of the circles on each of the two holders has a slightly raised area (not trimmed properly in production?) and this seems to be the area where the blotching is the worst. Always on only two of the four negatives, and always in the same place. This occurred on the last two development runs. The molding circles are only on two of the four sides of the film holders. Perhaps developer is getting trapped around the raised part of the film holder's crossbar and not getting washed off? Does the developer soak through from the back of the film into the emulsion? I have used both the SP-76 developer from Stearman Press, and Diafine, with similar results. Anybody have a similar experience? Suggestions? The film holders are NOT curved, and the film was definitely loaded with the emulsion side out. I have uploaded an image showing the blotches.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

I've had no problems with combinations of HP5+ and Pancro 400 against Rodinal and XTol.
I did double check my holders when I first got the kit to verify that they were flat and didn't have the injection molding curve issue.
My current technique for Rodinal is as follows:

• Pre-wet to get up to temp, that and it's a habit I got into with pyrocat
• Rodinal in, continuous but gentle inversions with taps on the counter to dislodge bubbles for the first 60 seconds
• Every 60 seconds is 3 gentle inversions over 10 seconds
• Dilute acetic stop
• Fix as usual, more vigorous agitation occasionally.

I think that the important part in my developing is the slow and gentle inversions, 3 over 10 seconds is pretty slow.

 

[tim48v]

Doug,
Can you email a higher resolution scan? I can't really see what you describing on the file you uploaded.
Frankly, I don't think the film holders can affect the emulsion. Could it be anti-halation coating not getting washed off?
You could try a some fine sandpaper and smooth them up.

Tim

 

[Doug Gray]

Doug,
Can you email a higher resolution scan? I can't really see what you describing on the file you uploaded.
Frankly, I don't think the film holders can affect the emulsion. Could it be anti-halation coating not getting washed off?
You could try a some fine sandpaper and smooth them up.

Tim

Tim, Thanks for responding. I will email you two images, high-res, showing the flaws. I processed 4 sheets of Arista 400 2 days ago and had no problems, but I agitated much more vigorously and washed longer and with more agitation, but then the problem never occurred with the Foma or Arista films, only the Ilford FP4+. I'm new to this forum and nor sure how to send you the files - do I upload them here or send to your email address at your website?

 

[tim48v]

Send them to timothy@stearmanpress.com

 

[tim48v]

BTW, we have a new recommended washing procedure:

 

[Doug Gray]

Doug,
Can you email a higher resolution scan? I can't really see what you describing on the file you uploaded.
Frankly, I don't think the film holders can affect the emulsion. Could it be anti-halation coating not getting washed off?
You could try a some fine sandpaper and smooth them up.

Tim

Tim,
Thanks for your help. Yes, it was the anti-halation coating that had not been washed off, because the film was being held against the crossbar of the film holder, both by the curvature of the film and a VERY slight curve in the holder, preventing the wash water from reaching the film at the point of contact. At your suggestion, I soaked the developed negatives in plain water for 5 minutes and the blotches dissolved, leaving a perfect image (well, at least an image with no technical flaws). Being a newcomer to home processing, I am grateful for the advice and support offered by you and others on this forum. As we discussed via email, I am going to try loading the film in the holders in a different way, or possibly modifying the holders in some way, but I have straightened the holders in warm water and scuffed up the crossbars with 400 wet/dry sandpaper to help prevent adhesion of the film, so I don't anticipate any further problems.

 

[PawelL]

Hi Tim,

I am not sure if you are still checking the forum and if your e-mail address is active. I got my SP 445 yesterday and ran two sheets of test pinhole HP 5 negs. I have a problem with the density difference (much less density) along the edges where the protruding film-holding wings are. It was pre-wetted for 5min and developed in PyrocaHD with Extremely Minimal Agitation, 2 min continuous agitation after filling the tank and rest for 7min 30 sec with another 30 sec agitation, repeated 3 times. Hope you can have some suggestions. The holder is V4.

Thanks

Pawel

 

[blee1996]

I'm using the SP-645 Max which handles 6 sheets at a time, and I have no streaking problem with Delta 100 or HP5+ films. I'm doing 2 minutes presoak, then Adox FX-39 II developer, 1+9 dilution, 7 min @ 68F. My agitation method is inversion with rotation for: first 30 seconds, and then 10 seconds at the beginning of each minute.

I'm guessing that the agitation method might be the issue here.

 

[PawelL]

I'm using the SP-645 Max which handles 6 sheets at a time, and I have no streaking problem with Delta 100 or HP5+ films. I'm doing 2 minutes presoak, then Adox FX-39 II developer, 1+9 dilution, 7 min @ 68F. My agitation method is inversion with rotation for: first 30 seconds, and then 10 seconds at the beginning of each minute.

I'm guessing that the agitation method might be the issue here.

Thanks for chipping in. I agitated around the long axis by inversion, as advised in Tim's videos, but saying that there are so many other variables.

Cheers
P

 

[koraks]

Extremely Minimal Agitation

Infrequent agitation schemes can exacerbate or create problems that otherwise would be absent, particularly related to tank & reel geometry. Start by introducing a normal agitation routine to see if you can get perfectly even results that way. Once you've got that down, experiment with reduced agitation if you so desire.

 

[PawelL]

Im sorry to hear your having issues. Ive only had my tank a month but its giving me flawless processing.
I have a routine it my help you solve the problem. 1. Ensure the emulsion side is facing out this is vital. 2. Dont over fill the tank it needs room for the liquid to move. 3. When you tighten the caps squeeze the tank slightly this will create a small vacuum which helps seal the lid. 4. When you invert the tank grip the tank in the middle where it joins the lid this also helps seal the tank. I get zero leakage best tank Ive used for that.
Just an addition in 40 years Ive never prewashed it may be nothing but Ive never had issues.
Apart from the holders not being flat I cant think of any reason for the problems other than the emulsion facing the wrong way this will 100% cause streaking.

Thanks for your suggestions and the outline of the process that gives you good results; I will refer to it to check that mine runs similarly. However, my problem is not necessarily with streaking but with lower density under the edge tabs supporting the film. I made sure the emulsion was facing out so I could rule out this mistake.

Great, thanks for the suggestions.

Best

P

 

[PawelL]

Infrequent agitation schemes can exacerbate or create problems that otherwise would be absent, particularly related to tank & reel geometry. Start by introducing a normal agitation routine to see if you can get perfectly even results that way. Once you've got that down, experiment with reduced agitation if you so desire.

Hi, that may be a good starting point. I have no problems with either 120 or 8x10 single sheets with this agitation scheme, so I did not envisage that this should affect SP445, but that needs to be rechecked.

Thanks

P