Sourcing Ferric Ammonium EDTA in the US

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Unbuiltbread

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Would like to make my own RA-4 and C-41 chems (mostly RA-4), but I cannot find a single source for the Ferric Ammonium EDTA anywhere. I’ve searched Artscraft, Photoforumarly, and major chemical suppliers like Flinn, CarolinaBio, and Fishers.

Without making my own, is my only option to use the alternative Ferric EDTA + Tetrasodium EDTA bleach that PE lists, or seeing if a ferricyanide bromide bleach from ECN-2 works?
 

koraks

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Welcome to Photrio!

or seeing if a ferricyanide bromide bleach from ECN-2 works?

This will work in principle for both C41 and RA4. However, especially with RA4 this will leave the print virtually unprotected against the effects of radicals in the environment, which means the prints will be less stable and more prone to fading and yellowing. If you only want to make prints for short-term display, this is not necessarily a problem. If you want your prints to last and/or intend to sell your work, you evidently should avoid this. Whether similar issues exist with C41 film is a bit of a guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Your location says USA; this means that C41 and RA4 chemistry is relatively easy and cost effective for you to obtain. What's your rationale for DYI-ing these?
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Welcome to Photrio!



This will work in principle for both C41 and RA4. However, especially with RA4 this will leave the print virtually unprotected against the effects of radicals in the environment, which means the prints will be less stable and more prone to fading and yellowing. If you only want to make prints for short-term display, this is not necessarily a problem. If you want your prints to last and/or intend to sell your work, you evidently should avoid this. Whether similar issues exist with C41 film is a bit of a guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Your location says USA; this means that C41 and RA4 chemistry is relatively easy and cost effective for you to obtain. What's your rationale for DYI-ing these?

Mostly bc I think it would be fun. For RA-4 the only chemicals currently available in hobbiest quantities that I could find is the Arista 4L kit for 75$. B&H and freestyle sell huge amounts developer and blix but there’s no chance I’d use them before they go off. The minimum is like 50Liters.

For c-41 I would like to have the option of doing smaller batches, since I don’t shoot that much C41 film. Mostly vision3 for color. I can get cheap chemistry but it would be nice to mix my own small baths for 1-2 rolls like I do with ECN-2.
Plus it would be cheaper and the dry chemistry lasts forever. The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.

Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE? I could link if you don’t know where to find it
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Ferric Ammonium EDTA / Disodium EDTA? | Photrio.com Photography Forums

It’s in this thread, I think when he talks about image longevity he is talking about the yellowing you mentioned
 

koraks

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Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE?
Nope, I do have the ingredients for it somewhere. I never bothered with it because the cost per roll for C41 bleach turns out to be so ridiculously low that any effort spent on trying to beat that seemed counterproductive to me. C41 bleach basically lasts forever and can be replenished easily. I really wouldn't bother trying to DIY it.

The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.
There are several posts here on this forum that detail how you can preserve your C41 developer. Even if you buy relatively small (and therefore relatively expensive, on a per-liter basis) volumes, these approaches work.

I think if you run the numbers, you'll realize (like many before you) that DIY-ing this chemistry only makes sense if you live in a location where commercial options are unavailable or prohibitively expensive, or if you're trying to hedge against a contingency where commercial chemistry becomes entirely unavailable. We sometimes see people in e.g. South American countries DIY-ing color chemistry for the former purpose.

I think when he talks about image longevity he is talking about the yellowing you mentioned
No, it's a different mechanism. PE seems to be referring to the effects of incomplete bleaching, i.e. retained silver. That's also a concern, but more so in film (esp. slide film) than in paper - although of course in paper it's also undesirable. There's just not a whole lot of silver in paper so it generally blixes out fairly easily.
 
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Unbuiltbread

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Nope, I do have the ingredients for it somewhere. I never bothered with it because the cost per roll for C41 bleach turns out to be so ridiculously low that any effort spent on trying to beat that seemed counterproductive to me. C41 bleach basically lasts forever and can be replenished easily. I really wouldn't bother trying to DIY it.


There are several posts here on this forum that detail how you can preserve your C41 developer. Even if you buy relatively small (and therefore relatively expensive, on a per-liter basis) volumes, these approaches work.

I think if you run the numbers, you'll realize (like many before you) that DIY-ing this chemistry only makes sense if you live in a location where commercial options are unavailable or prohibitively expensive, or if you're trying to hedge against a contingency where commercial chemistry becomes entirely unavailable. We sometimes see people in e.g. South American countries DIY-ing color chemistry for the former purpose.


No, it's a different mechanism. PE seems to be referring to the effects of incomplete bleaching, i.e. retained silver. That's also a concern, but more so in film (esp. slide film) than in paper - although of course in paper it's also undesirable. There's just not a whole lot of silver in paper so it generally blixes out fairly easily.

I might try that alt bleach just for fun to see how it works. Sourcing just the blix from photography chemical suppliers seems to be the ideal plan. Cinestill sells Kodak RA-4 Blix replenisher in 20L quantities but I’ll have to get a starter batch, or figure out how to use replenisher on its own
 

Samu

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Mostly bc I think it would be fun. For RA-4 the only chemicals currently available in hobbiest quantities that I could find is the Arista 4L kit for 75$. B&H and freestyle sell huge amounts developer and blix but there’s no chance I’d use them before they go off. The minimum is like 50Liters.

For c-41 I would like to have the option of doing smaller batches, since I don’t shoot that much C41 film. Mostly vision3 for color. I can get cheap chemistry but it would be nice to mix my own small baths for 1-2 rolls like I do with ECN-2.
Plus it would be cheaper and the dry chemistry lasts forever. The longest I’ve pushed C41 dev kits is about 15 rolls over 2 months from an 8 roll kit and the dev times were very long.

Have you ever tried the alt bleach from PE? I could link if you don’t know where to find it

With the pricing, there is very little idea in buying RA-4 chemistry in small quantities. You pay the same price for 4 one liter kits you would pay for 50L of pro chemistry. Professional chemistry concentrates, such as Fuji Hunt' s Enviroprint, will keep well. Also, it is not one shot only, as the kits are in reality, but it can be replenished quite easily.
 

Rudeofus

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Cinestill sells Kodak RA-4 Blix replenisher in 20L quantities but I’ll have to get a starter batch, or figure out how to use replenisher on its own

While there are striking (as in: photographically relevant) differences between first/color developer working solution vs. replenisher, the differences are far less significant between bleach/fixer working solution vs. replenisher. Bleach replenisher will be somewhat more acidic than the working solution, which can be addressed with some extra Ammonia solution. Fixer replenisher will be more alkaline than working solution, just add Acetic Acid until it is odorless. In both cases I would not bother with starter.
 
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