Some more Qs regarding B&W developing ...

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IloveTLRs

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So I gave up on Darkless, and after developing the old fashioned way all I can say is GOOD RIDDANCE! So far I'm 4 for 4 with no screw-ups (Anyone who wants to say "I told you so" - be my guest :rolleyes: :D ) There's a clerk in my favorite store downtown who knows his stuff (helped me get chemicals, etc.) , but not everything, so I'm turning to the fine folks here for some help ...

1. I'm using Super-Prodol in powder form (mix with 1l water @20?, stir, etc.) When I'm done with the dev stage, do I pour it back into the jug or toss it out? The package isn't really clear ...

2. On the handy-dandy dev time chart on the back, it gives different times according to dev temperature: 18?, 20?, etc. What difference does it make what temp the dev is at?

3. Can I really use vinegar for stop bath? How do I mix it? I was told not to since vinegar is for food and the stuff I bought is for photographic use specifically.

4. If I use Fuji developer, do I have to use Fuji fixer? Can I mix and match?

5. On the back of D-76 it says it does TMAX. Really? Does it come out different than if I use TMAX developer? (TMAX is my current all-time favorite B&W film.)

6. What happens if I develop Fujifilm in D-76 or Kodak film in Super-Prodol?

Thanks for any help :smile:
 

Nick Zentena

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Warmer times normally mean faster results. Too cold and the developer will stop working. Too hot and the film will melt.

Yes you can use vinegar. How much depends on how strong it is. You want about 1-2% acetic acid in the final mix.

You can mix and match.

D-76 is basically the standard. Everything works in D-76. You may like something better but D-76 works.
 

Snapshot

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It's my understanding that SPD (Super-Prodol) can be used to develop 10 rolls per litre of solution. If you reuse SPD, however, you have to adjust you development time to account for developer exhaustion.
 
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thebanana

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Developer is relatively cheap. I never reuse mine. Toss it when you're done and you'll have fewer things to worry about.
 

mjs

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When it comes to black and white film, pretty much any film can be developed in any developer. The exception are C-41 process films, which even though being black and white need color processing chemistry.

T-Max films work great in FRESH D-76. I find that I prefer Tmax in D76 over the TMax developer, but that's a very personal preference. But I repeat: the D-76 must be freshly mixed: oxidation, even a few days' worth, gives inconsistant results with this film.

Your average bottle of household vinegar is about 4% acetic acid, if I remember correctly (it's been a while, so I could be wrong: check the label!) As Nick said, dilute it down to 1% to 2% with distilled water and it makes a fine stop bath: throw it away when you're done with it, don't bother saving it. Ditto on the developer, unless it's some really expensive potion. Better to spend an extra dollar or two than to risk using exhausted developer on your film.

You can happily mix and match chemicals for ordinary black & white processing. Feel free to get giddy -- Fuji developer, home-made stop, Ilford fixer and Kodak toner, for example. Just have a good old time!
 

fschifano

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1.) Don't know enough about Super Prodol to be of much help. Search Fuji's online documentation (if you can find it) for more info.

2.) Developer activity is affected by temperature. Warm developer works faster than cool developer. For now, follow the directions.

3.) Yes, you really can use white vinegar. Dilute it with an equal part of water for photographic use. It's good for emergencies. Stop bath is cheaper and has an indicating dye to let you know when it's exhausted.

4.) No. You can mix and match to your heart's content.

5.) Yes, you can and no, the differences are not that great. D-76 does an admirable job with all sorts of B&W film. It is a tried and true standard. My favorite developer.

6.) Used correctly, it works either way.
 

Neal

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Dear IloveTLRs,

1) Unless you are doing a lot of developing, re-using developer is a false economy. Your results will be much more consistent if you use developer with roughly the same activity. Put another way, developer is cheaper than film (and the time, effort and expense to make exposures).

2) See Nick's response above.

3) Yes, but the nice thing about indicator stop bath is that it is reusable and you know when it's exhausted. The cost of using photographic stop bath is insignificant unless you really start processing a lot of film and paper.

4) See Nick's response above.

5) The difference between the two developers is small. For now you can easily ignore them. Use any of the developer you can easily obtain and stay with it for a while.

6) See Nick's response above.

I would suggest an hour at the local library. You should be able to find a readable description of what the various processing chemicals do. It will demystify the process for you. In detail, it's all quite complicated, but at the level that most of us need to know it is very easy to understand. In addition to the chemical process, try and find a book that explains what a characteristic curve is and how development time affects it.

Neal Wydra
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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Thanks for the responses :smile:

I bought some D-76 the other day, but I don't have an empty jug to make it in. In the meantime I'm going to try TMAX 400 120 w/Super Prodol. Wish me luck :smile:
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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A few more Qs ...

1. So dev temp doesn't affect shadows or highlights on the film? I usually develop at 22 or 24 since it's faster.

2. Developer you can reuse if you want, but nothing else, right? It is my educated guess that stop, fix & quickwash would be contaminated (especially stop) if you poured them back into their containers after use, right?

3. I'm using 1l bottles bought at a $1 shop to store my "potions". I've found that in doing 120 chemicals get used up rather quickly. What kind of containers are people here using? And is it safe to use the kitchen sink as long as I wash everything afterwards?

4. Has anyone used Fuji Driwel? I picked up a bottle for a couple of bucks but haven't used it yet.

5. Should I be using gloves? I ran out a few days ago and I'm getting sick of dev smell and worried about health risks.
 

MattKing

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A few answers :smile::

1. Within a narrow range, if you compensate for higher temperatures with shorter times, your results will be fine. This works best if your 20C time is fairly long to start.

2. All chemistry can be reused until it is exhausted, but the amount of reuse varies from chemical to chemical. Developer can be reused, but it is probably the last part of the process that I would reuse, because it is most important that the developer part of the process be used in a repeatable and consistent manner.

3. I use the kitchen sink - I expect that the chemistry I use for developing is less toxic than the cleaners I use to clean the sink. As far as bottles are concerned, there are a lot of posts here on APUG about the choices, so I would do some searches to see what you can find. Personally, I clean and reuse some of the containers that the chemistry came in (e.g. my HC110 "stock" is mixed in an old 16 oz container that HC110 syrup used to inhabit, and my working strength fixer can be found in old Kodafix bottles), while other s are in recyclable plastic pop ("soda") bottles. Everything is stored in cupboards that are dark when closed.

4. I have no knowledge about Fuji Driwel.

5. I've been working in darkrooms for decades, and almost never wear gloves. Despite that, I recommend that you should wear them, or at least use tongs when printing. While I have been able to avoid problems by being fastidious about rinsing my hands in water regularly, I know others who have had problems with allergic reactions. Here, nitrile gloves are both cheap and easy to use - it would be a good idea to get into the habit of using them.

Matt
 

jim appleyard

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Can you take a photography course through your local college or arts center? Books are good and the folks here on APUG are the best, but there's no substitute for someone showing you how to do it.
 

Snapshot

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I use latex or nitrile gloves when handling materials that are toxic but not in general everyday use. When printing, I use tongs and should I splash myself with anything, I wash right away. Simply, minimize contact with chemistry and there should be no short term or long term health impacts. If you are getting "sick" of the developer smell, then you need to ventilate the room better.
 

dancqu

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Should I be using gloves?
I ran out a few days ago and I'm getting
sick of dev smell and worried about health risks.

Gloves? I've worked for years in darkroom chemistry and
to this day have never bothered with glove or tongs. I'd
go without aids for starters and see what happens.

Developer smell? Perhaps you've the stop and fixer in mind.
In my now home environment I've gone alkaline and old
fashioned fix for a no fumes no smell darkroom. Dan
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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I may ask at the local library, but it would be all in Japanese (I live in Japan.) My Japanese isn't good enough to be reading technical publications. As I said I've been asking at my local photo supply place, but only one guy knows about developing and even his knowledge is limited.

As for taking a class, I'm not sure if film-based courses are still going on or not; the digital craze is pretty big here. On top of that, most Japanese photographers can be really anal and 'it's my way or the highway' and I don't want to have to sit through anymore critiques (had enough of those in college.)

I'm not getting physically sick from the smell, just tired. Having my hands smell of developer reminds me of my college days. I bought some rubber gloves last nite at a $1 shop so I should be all set.

I'd like to get my hands on some Rodinal (heard it's not a fine-grain developer) but I don't know who'd stock it over here :confused:
 

srs5694

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1. I'm using Super-Prodol in powder form (mix with 1l water @20?, stir, etc.) When I'm done with the dev stage, do I pour it back into the jug or toss it out? The package isn't really clear ...

As others have said, developer can be re-used, but most home darkroom users don't do it. Many developers can be used at a variety of dilutions (undiluted, 1+1, 1+3, etc.), and for economy or to subtly vary the results, people will use it at the higher dilutions. Don't dilute beyond what the manufacturer recommends, though, since that can cause problems.

2. On the handy-dandy dev time chart on the back, it gives different times according to dev temperature: 18?, 20?, etc. What difference does it make what temp the dev is at?

Others have answered this, but I'll add that most chemical reactions, not just photochemical reactions, proceed more quickly as the temperature is raised. Also, if you move on to developing your own color film, temperature control will become very important. C-41 films are meant to be processed at 100F, and deviating from that, even when you also adjust the times, can result in color shifts. With B&W, though, you can vary the temperature within a fairly wide range and you'll be fine, so long as you adjust the time accordingly.

4. If I use Fuji developer, do I have to use Fuji fixer? Can I mix and match?

Others have correctly said that you can mix-and-match brands of chemicals. There is, however, one advantage to sticking to one manufacturer: If something goes wrong and you call the tech support line for help, the manufacturer can't point the finger at another manufacturer! This is probably most important when you're starting out, though, so if you've got a stock of Fuji products I'd just go through them and then when you need more of something, buy whatever's convenient or appealing.

2. Developer you can reuse if you want, but nothing else, right? It is my educated guess that stop, fix & quickwash would be contaminated (especially stop) if you poured them back into their containers after use, right?

In most cases, fixer and indicator stop bath are the most re-usable chemicals, at least in a home darkroom. I wouldn't re-use vinegar used as stop bath, though. Check your fixer's instructions for how many rolls it can handle, and don't use it for more than that. Also, be sure to dispose of your fixer properly, which means according to local laws, which vary substantially from place to place.

3. I'm using 1l bottles bought at a $1 shop to store my "potions". I've found that in doing 120 chemicals get used up rather quickly. What kind of containers are people here using? And is it safe to use the kitchen sink as long as I wash everything afterwards?

People have differing preferences with respect to bottles. Personally, I prefer glass because it's impermeable to air, which helps with storage life. (At least theoretically and according to what I've read; I've never done any controlled experiments myself.) I re-use glass bottles that used to store food (spaghetti sauce, root beer, iced tea, etc.), supplemented with some Boston rounds I bought online for smaller quantities. Other people prefer plastic because it doesn't break. If children live with you, you might want to avoid re-using food bottles because the kids might mistake the photochemicals for food, particularly if you store your photochemicals in the kitchen. As to using the kitchen, plenty of people do this. I do advise care in cleaning up, and I probably wouldn't put food directly on any counter that might have had photochemicals on it, just to be on the safe side.

Oh, and back to bottles: Try to keep them as full as possible, particularly for the developer; exposure to air causes the developer to deteriorate. Different people have different approaches to this problem. Some drop marbles into partially-filled bottles to displace the air; others use bottles of varying sizes, keeping most completely full; others use an inert gas to "blanket" the chemicals in a partially-full bottle; and still others use vacuum pumps to reduce the air pressure in partially-full bottles.

5. Should I be using gloves? I ran out a few days ago and I'm getting sick of dev smell and worried about health risks.

For B&W, I don't use gloves, although I probably would if I used pyro developers. Most B&W chemicals just aren't that dangerous. OTOH, metol (or possibly contaminants that are commonly associated with metol) has been known to cause contact dermatitis, and the reaction can grow in severity with prolonged or repeated exposure. Thus, if you use a developer that contains metol (most do, including D-76), you might want to consider wearing gloves, particularly if you have known allergies or sensitive skin. Some developers, such as Kodak's XTOL, are metol-free, and so don't pose this specific risk.

I'd like to get my hands on some Rodinal (heard it's not a fine-grain developer) but I don't know who'd stock it over here

If you can't find Rodinal locally, you could try mixing it yourself. Several formulas are available online and in books. Unfortunately, most require you to obtain a chemical called para-aminophenol or a minor variant of it, and this is likely to be hard to find. One easier-to-mix alternative is called paRodinal. This is mixed using acetaminophen (Tylenol), sodium sulfite, and sodium hydroxide (lye), all of which are relatively easy to locate. Once in solution, the sodium hydroxide converts the acetaminophen into para-aminophenol, and the resulting brew is very similar to "real" Rodinal. OTOH, there's always the risk that your acetaminophen will have some biologically inert substance that'll cause problems in a developer, so if you try this, you should definitely develop an unimportant roll before you develop anything important with it.
 

Toffle

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I may ask at the local library, but it would be all in Japanese (I live in Japan.)

I bought some rubber gloves last nite at a $1 shop so I should be all set.

Totally off-topic here, but aren't those 300¥ shops a treat?

Cheers,
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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Most definitely. I got my rubber gloves there, four containers for my chemicals, a pen light to look inside cameras & lenses, screw drivers and an ash tray for something to do during final wash :wink:
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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Sorry, a quick Q to clarify here

1. This is my process:
  1. developer - time depending on film
  2. stop - constant agitation for about 30 seconds
  3. fix - constant agitation for 7 minutes
  4. pre-wash - 30 seconds under running water, open tank
  5. Fuji Quickwash - 1 minute, constant agitation
  6. final wash - 7 minutes under running water, open tank

Do I need constant agitation at the fixer stage? If I don't need to I'd rather not since 7 minutes is a looooong time :rolleyes:

I ran out of Fuji QuickWash (Fuji QW) the other day and so I went from fix directly to final wash. My negs (Tri-X 400) took longer to dry and had water marks on them the next morning. Fuji QW is most definitely going to be a required step for me from now on ...
 

srs5694

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Sorry, a quick Q to clarify here

1. This is my process:
  1. developer - time depending on film

Correct. Also, agitation style and (as mentioned earlier in this thread, IIRC) temperature will affect the time. In practice, you should consider the times printed in charts as starting estimates; if you don't like the results you get, adjust the time.

  • stop - constant agitation for about 30 seconds

Correct.

  • fix - constant agitation for 7 minutes

Fixing time varies with the fixer. Some only take a couple of minutes. Others take substantially longer. One common rule of thumb is to fix for twice the clearing time (three times for T-grain films). Take a small piece of film (such as the leader) and, without developing it, drop it in the fixer. Time how long it takes to clear; that's the clearing time. Note that the clearing time (and hence the appropriate fixing time) will increase as you use the fixer for more rolls; the fixing time for the first roll will be shorter than the fixing time for the last roll.

  • pre-wash - 30 seconds under running water, open tank
  • Fuji Quickwash - 1 minute, constant agitation
  • final wash - 7 minutes under running water, open tank

There are a lot of different washing procedures. This one sounds reasonable, although 7 minutes for the final wash seems a bit long. (Too long is probably better than too short, though, and if the manufacturer of the fixer and wash aid recommends 7 minutes, I'd use 7 minutes.) If water conservation is important in your area, you might look up the Ilford wash procedure, which involves filling the tank with water and then dumping it three times, with 5, 10, and 20 agitations after each fill. This procedure should only be used with a non-hardening fixer, though.

Also, most photographers use a final dunk in a wetting agent (such as Kodak Photo-Flo) after the final wash. This helps the film dry evenly, without water marks on the negatives.

Do I need constant agitation at the fixer stage? If I don't need to I'd rather not since 7 minutes is a looooong time :rolleyes:

I've never used constant agitation with the fixer; I agitate as I do for the developer (constantly for 30 seconds then 5 inversions every 30 seconds thereafter). OTOH, I've only been developing my own film for about 3 years; maybe my negatives will all deteriorate next year because I did it wrong. :rolleyes:

I ran out of Fuji QuickWash (Fuji QW) the other day and so I went from fix directly to final wash. My negs (Tri-X 400) took longer to dry and had water marks on them the next morning. Fuji QW is most definitely going to be a required step for me from now on ...

I'm not familiar with Fuji QuickWash (Fuji doesn't market its B&W chemicals in the US), but based on its position in your sequence I'd assumed it was a wash aid, similar to Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA) or Ilford Universal Wash Aid. The purpose of this product is to help remove residual thiosulfate products from the fixing step. Without the use of a wash aid, the wash time should normally be increased, but how much depends on the type of fixer used (acid, neutral, or alkaline; and hardening vs. non-hardening). It's therefore probable that you've underwashed those negatives you mention. You might want to wash them again for another 10-20 minutes to ensure their long-term stability.
 

CBG

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A number of film developers can be diluted 1:1, or 1:2, or 1:3 or so... as mentioned above. The developing times increase. Don't dilute too much. Don't go overboard.

The developers are then generally used as "one shot", that is, used a single time, then disposed of. The immediate advantage is that used once, a developer is always about as fresh as possible, and the consistency of processing is improved.

Other changes occur. Dilute developer tends to work comparitively more vigorously upon shadow than highlight, digging up a bit more shadow detail from the same exposure. Given that a dilute developer has less active developing agents per cc, the highlights tend to use up more of the developing power in their vicinity since they are centers of much chemical activity, whereas the shadows are just barely active, and thus tend to have more fresh and strong developer in their proximity. Such development can be called a compensating development.

Such development depends upon agitating less vigorously than usual, to encourage the developer in each given region to stay put where it is so it can play it's part in the compensating action. If you agitate a lot, then each area gets fresh solution of equal strengthy, and most or all the differential action will be forfeit.

Best,

C
 

dancqu

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Also, most photographers use a final dunk in a wetting
agent (such as Kodak Photo-Flo) after the final wash.
This helps the film dry evenly, without water marks
on the negatives.

I'm your friendly Eight Blade Film Squeegee salesman.
At least I've that feeling mentioning the subject as often
as I do. I'll not go into details but if interested search
this NG for, eight blade . Dan
 
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IloveTLRs

IloveTLRs

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I got some Fuji Driwel but haven't gotten around to mixing it yet. It is supposed to reduce drying time and the chances of scratches (good for Acros which scratches like the back of a new iPod.)

I'll try agitating my fix like I do developer and see if anything changes. Right now though things are going hunky-dory so I don't want to fix anything that ain't broke.

Thanks for the responses though, as always :smile:
 
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