Some help with this C. P. Goerz shutter

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

I recently got this C. P. Goerz Am. Opt. Co XecelL Sector shutter as part of a Kodak No. 5 Series D purchase.
Shutter seems to work well, I got the blades moving smoothly and it seems to be true enough to speed.

The lens on it is a B&L RR lens of unknown focal length. Both the element screwed on to the front and onto the rear of the shutter are experiencing separation, with yellow spidering around the rim and some hazing. I would like to get a new-to-me lens if possible, and maybe upgrade to an anastigmat.
My question is 1. If I knew all the information about this lens, what are the chances of me finding another one that would fit this shutter?
2. What information do I need to know to seek a replacement? Is it just diameter, threading and focal length?

My other question is does anyone know what type of shutter remote release would fit that end? It is used as the shutter release also when the remote is not attacked, so the tab sticks out of the socket, making it a male end as opposed to the more modern female remote terminal. Ive attached an image of the remote release that came with it.

Finally does anyone know anything much about this shutter (or lens...)? It is difficult to find anything beyond a single old photrio post that even mentions it. From what Ive seen of old Kodak ads for the No. 5 Series D, this was not a shutter that was offered from the manufacturer, so it was put on later.

Thanks for any help

shutterfinger · Apr 21, 2021

What is printed on the lens barrel? Being the camera is a 5x7, the diagonal of the format being 8.6 inch the lens is 218mm /8.6 inch focal length or longer if a portrait lens.

Shutter: page 10 of https://learncamerarepair.com/downloads/pdf/Inter-Lens-Shutters-1917.pdf

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

It just says BAUSCH & LOMB OPTICAL CO. and RAPID RECTILINEAR

reddesert · Apr 21, 2021

Cool looking shutter. That lens doesn't look so bad. It's pretty clear perhaps except near the edges. You should try shooting it before replacing it. Refitting a lens into shutter requires matching the diameter, threading, and the spacing between the elements. There are too many standards for lens threading, so unless your shutter matches a very well known model it will be hard to find elements that just screw in. Further, once you swap lenses you have to re-measure the aperture numbers.

Rapid Rectilinears are a symmetric pair of doublets; they are not technically anastigmats, but I think their relatively slow speed (by modern standards) limits astigmatism, and the symmetry decreases many aberrations; they should still make good images.

If you are lucky, a cable release that fits externally threaded fittings (found on Leica rfs, the Nikon F, and some TLRs like the Rollei) will fit onto your shutter release. It was once fairly easy to find an adapter for these. This clever person made his own adapter from a valve cap: https://www.willgudgeon.com/2019/12/cheap-diy-cable-release-adaptor-for-tlr.html

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

Thanks, I will try making an adapter from the valve cap since its just a run down to the auto parts store. I am going to try shooting the lens, and will most likely use it for as while regardless of condition. Just late internet wandering had me wondering about a new lens.

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

I forgot to include the images of the shutter release that came with it. It has a neat ball and socket style quick release. Its a shame that the fabric is brittle and tearing, it doesn't work that well anymore.

Don_ih · Apr 21, 2021

You can find the focal length by setting the shutter to bulb, opening the aperture wide, and using the lens to project a light source (window or lamp) onto a darker wall. Measure the distance from around the shutter and that's the focal length. I'd try it with and without the rear element - sometimes, you get a different focal length without the rear element from such lens configurations. I think it's normally double without the rear? Not sure. Anyway, I would keep that lens. The separation will have next to no impact on image making unless it spreads about 1/3 of the way toward the centre of the lens. You should try the lens with and without the rear element.

Don_ih · Apr 21, 2021

Also - is the lens perhaps on the shutter backward? Looks like the front element is screwed onto the back of the shutter.

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

No, its on correctly. Its just sort of an ugly shutter. If you look at the other pics you will see the manufacturers name and speed/aperture adjustments.

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

Re. the shooting with and without the rear element. This may solve my mystery of why the camera has 2 distance scales. One is for wide angle, but I thought it was odd being that it didnt come with any wide angle lens. Since they look different I thought one may have just been added later in life.

Don_ih · Apr 21, 2021

vjuliano said:
other pics you will see the manufacturers name

The manufacturer's name is often around the outside of the inner element. The outside element should be larger diameter than the inner element (the inner normally has a diameter around the size of the max aperture). Anyway, that's why I thought it might be backward.

It might be the lens was replaced and the white scale was added later with the new lens. I can't imagine there would be two different materials used if both were applied at the same time.

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

I assumed it had to be the white scale that was new as well. Especially since I have other Kodak stuff from the early 20th century that has badges similar to the black one. But a google image search returns results with cameras having the white distance scale.
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...series_1_3c11e1c6cd33cd91b7d8809119b3e715.jpg

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

So based on these images, would you still think that the brass colored element is the inner one? I just expected the manufacturer would want their name visible. Its been on the outside of every lens Ive dealt with.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2021

The Bausch and Lomb rapid rectilinear was a fairly common lens used by Kodak in the early 1900’s. It was a mid- to higher-grade lens offering. I used one for several years, mostly with color Polaroid. With a lens shade it performed rather well. As a symmetrical design it can be used as a convertible... like yours seems to be configured. I found the performance using only one cell to be dreadful. I removed the front cell and shot with the rear cell in place.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2021

vjuliano said:
I just expected the manufacturer would want their name visible. Its been on the outside of every lens Ive dealt with.

Concur

Don_ih · Apr 21, 2021

Yeah - it was an illusion that the inside appeared to be larger diameter. Given the inside is black, it's likely supposed to be in the camera.

You can see what kind of image circles you get by projecting each separate element on a wall. If the edges look especially fuzzy, the resulting picture using just half the lens would probably be pretty bad. Sometimes, these things aren't much better than a magnifying glass if separated.

Looking at it, it's pretty similar to what I have on my 5x7. That lens claims to be f4.5 or something but a simple calculation proves it's actually f11 (whether that's a result of a lens swap or an outdated aperture version, I don't know). It's very dim, which makes focus and composition hard.

vjuliano · Apr 21, 2021

This shutter / lens is off a Kodak No. 5 Series D plate camera which is 5x7. I havent been able to try it in daylight since I cleaned it up earlier today, but in bright sun it was quite dim on the ground glass before. Im excited to get it out and try to get some shots.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2021

Don Heisz said:
That lens claims to be f4.5 or something but a simple calculation proves it's actually f11 (whether that's a result of a lens swap or an outdated aperture version, I don't know).

In that era, it most likely refers to US stops.

BrianShaw · Apr 21, 2021

Regarding question 2: I would not be wed to this shutter and look toward a more modern replacement for everyday usage. There are “better” vintage options, like Kodak Anastigmats... or move up to the 1950’s with a Kodak Commercial Ektar... or even more modern with any of the plasmats of the 1980’s onward.

what you have seems more of a great display piece.

outwest · Apr 21, 2021

It does have US stops. It will be an f/8 lens (marked 4 in US, 8=f/11, 16=f/16, 32=f/22, 64=f/32, and so forth) and will be around 210mm plus and for a 5x7. Neat shutter!

shutterfinger · Apr 21, 2021

A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum has little on B&L. They show Rapid Universal with (RR) after it as f7 for 8 inch and 8.5 inch for 5x8. There is also a Rapid Rectilinear Portrait lens.
The standard Rapid Universal diagram is Q5 and the Portrait is Bau 001.

vjuliano · Apr 22, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Regarding question 2: I would not be wed to this shutter and look toward a more modern replacement for everyday usage. There are “better” vintage options, like Kodak Anastigmats... or move up to the 1950’s with a Kodak Commercial Ektar... or even more modern with any of the plasmats of the 1980’s onward.

what you have seems more of a great display piece.

There is a gap in my knowledge of shutters from about the 1930s until the 1970s. Imagining that this shutter is speed accurate, what would a "better" shutter from the 1950s actually get me? Aside from normal f-stops and a common shutter release terminal. I dont plan on using a flash with this, so flash sync is irrelevant to me. I have a Kodak Monitor with a Kodamatic 2 shutter on it, and it seems to be about the same as this shutter(granted its only about 15 years newer).

BrianShaw · Apr 22, 2021

vjuliano said:
Imagining that this shutter is speed accurate, what would a "better" shutter from the 1950s actually get me?

Good question! You certainly understand both the situation and your needs. If the shutter runs good and the lens is okay for your needs then use it. I would. My suggestion for “better” was predicated on the possibility that the lens is not up to snuff. Rather than trying to find a replacement lens to fit the shutter it will be easier to replace both. Perhaps I should have written “easier” instead of “better”. The newer the lens the more likely it will be that you can get coated glass. Not on a Kodak Anastigmat but certainly on a Commercial Ektar.

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2021

Kodak used proprietary threading on the lens and shutters they made from the 1930's or 1940's onward. A Compur, Synchro Compur, Ilex, or Ccopal shutter will be more likely to have threads and spacing that match your lens.
https://skgrimes.com/products/shutters/ click on the shutter type to see its measurement at the bottom of the shutter's page.

John Koehrer · Apr 24, 2021

The scale is meters/feet and is just a conversion from feet -> meters. Whichever is more convenient for the user.

Some help with this C. P. Goerz shutter

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